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freetime2 8 hours ago [-]
Cars that are designed from the ground up to be EVs tend to be much better than trying to shoehorn an EV into an ICE design.
The new Lexus ES350e, which comes in both hybrid and EV flavors, has been pretty universally panned as a mediocre EV [1]. Lexus anticipates that the vast majority of ES sales will be for the hybrid model, and I expect the same will be true of the Corolla.
The updated bZ and new bZ Woodland on the other hand, which are built as ground-up EVs on the e-TNGA platform, actually seem pretty decent. And I'm hopeful for the upcoming EV Highlander, too (although that will use a modified version of the TNGA-K platform).
I would prefer if Toyota just released a new EV model with roughly the same proportions as the Corolla, instead of going with the one-size-fits-all approach. But maybe they'll finally be able to get it right this time.
Everyone thought Toyota was Nokia when Tesla appeared... I think those days are over. Toyota survived that one already with a facelift for Prius.
BYD Dolphin base in Japan is $19k, the new Racco kei car is $14k. They're not doing so well - they just have no selling point. They're not even the cheapest of EVs in Japan, let alone the cheapest of all cars for Japan - $19k is literally 4k over the current gen JDM Corolla. I think that is an indication that BYD has no secret sauce but their pricing are just introductory one to starve off last bits of Western industrial capacities spared by Japanese automakers.
thelastgallon 15 minutes ago [-]
> They're not doing so well - they just have no selling point.
Japanese are known to be racist. Japan and China have a lot of history. Chinese cars are selling well in most countries where the entrenched manufacturers haven't convinced their Govts to screw their people with bans and tariffs.
baxtr 6 minutes ago [-]
Isn’t saying Japanese are known to be racists a bit racist?
hn_submit 7 hours ago [-]
I agree that it's much better to design an EV to be an EV from the ground up. The reality is, however, that consumers don't want EVs for a myriad of reasons and prefer hybrids. And developing two completely different platforms is too expensive even for a higly profitable company like Toyota.
sammularczyk 6 hours ago [-]
Might be true in some countries but EVs are rapidly becoming the highest sellers in many others. My experience is that once people experience an EV for the first time they prefer it over a hybrid/ICE car, unless there's a practical reason for needing hybrid range (which most people will argue but don't need day to day).
idiotsecant 5 hours ago [-]
In my area of the country there is one very simple modification manufacturers could make to ensure their vehicles are wildly more useful: add diesel heaters. Heat the batteries and the people during the winters rather than using onboard power to do it. It would sip diesel and contribute hugely to utility. I am in the process of building my own because nobody makes one
kalleboo 57 seconds ago [-]
[delayed]
Thlom 2 hours ago [-]
Why? A lot of EVs these days comes with a heatpump so heating doesn’t use that much power. I live in a cold country where 98% of new cars are EVs and I have never heard anyone asking for something like this. A quick search on popular EV forums shows a few threads from 2010-2014. That’s it. I know webasto has a product like this, but there’s practically zero cars on the road with it installed.
fpoling 1 hours ago [-]
Heat pumps are mostly useless when it is minus -20 C. Diesel heater is the most practical solution. Sodium or LMFP batteries will help, but even with them the range reduction in winter due to the need for heating and increased drag from cold air is just too great.
Alive-in-2025 11 minutes ago [-]
Every ev already has this today, 10 years ago it was in some leading cars like teslas. Only the leaf and a few others didn't have battery heating and cooling, and the fact that so many think those problems are in all evs set back the whole market.
A 10 year old tesla can heat and cool the battery before leaving, you could set a daily time to heat it up, or just turn it on just before you go manually if you wished.
mountain_peak 1 hours ago [-]
In high school, one of my friends had a VW (air cooled) with a torpedo heater installed that would heat the interior to 30 degrees C in a matter of minutes - no matter how cold it was outside.
Likewise, in university, my friend's army jeep had a gas heater that would melt snow off his canvas roof.
People are consuming 30% of their battery power to heat the vehicle and batteries - and that's with reduced battery range. It only makes sense to add a container for gas/diesel and a heater - really can't understand why manufacturers are against instant and very low cost heat as an option to protect range and increase safety (in case you're stranded in the winter with a depleted battery).
Best of luck adapting one to your vehicle.
Alive-in-2025 9 minutes ago [-]
Certainly it uses some battery energy to do that battery heating. If you have a plugin at. home, even a 120v one, you can just use your home power.
mschuster91 11 minutes ago [-]
Manufacturers don't do torpedo heaters outside of campers because they are a PITA. You need to find a place for the fuel tank and the fuel receptacle, for the heater itself, and you need an exhaust that requires clearance. And for a heater integrated into regular airflow routing it gets even more complex.
thelastgallon 2 hours ago [-]
EVs should always be plugged in. There is electricity wherever it is parked. Heating or cooling can be done using grid, instead of onboard battery.
EVs play a role in the energy ecosystem. They absorb excess production during the day and can supply power back to the grid by participating in a virtual power plant (VPP).
dj_gitmo 3 hours ago [-]
I have been waiting for a manufacturer to finally embrace this tech. I know electric buses already do it. I think people just have a mental barrier about this because EVs are supposed to be eco friendly.
I really hope you succeed
jacquesm 5 hours ago [-]
Webasto. They make a really decent little unit, easy to integrate too.
seanmcdirmid 6 hours ago [-]
You mean American consumers. Toyota still has to consider the rest of the world while America is basically a shrinking market now.
nradov 3 hours ago [-]
The US market is still large enough for Toyota to build several models that are sold only in North America. The Japanese market is also slowly shrinking due to demographic changes.
mrits 4 hours ago [-]
Yes, the famously meaningless US consumer…
seanmcdirmid 6 minutes ago [-]
Not meaningless, just less meaningful year over year.
7e 4 hours ago [-]
The US is roughly 30% of the world’s car spending, and if Toyota made a car only for the rest of the world, it would be more expensive than a competitor’s platform which is sold in EV and non-EV forms everywhere. An EV is still more expensive than the equivalent ICE and it would be even more expensive if it doesn’t share a platform.
An EV built on a dedicated platform doesn’t become more profitable than the shared platform version until it sells about two million copies. That’s because it costs $1B more in fixed costs for a dedicated EV manufacturing setup. If that car isn’t going to sell that many, it’s not worth making dedicated. In Europe EVs are still outsold by ICE 4 to 1. Even if I did sell two million copies, all you have done is recouped your $1B, not made any more profit than if you did the shared platform.
seanmcdirmid 8 minutes ago [-]
It was 30% in the early 2000s, now it’s around 24%. Hence what I meant by falling. By volume it’s even worse: China is basically allowing many people in the developing world to own cars for the first time, as well as fuel them without expensive oil imports.
motionlessveloc 3 hours ago [-]
The cheapest car available in Australia is now an EV, and it's an EV-only platform.
That’s because that car is made in China and has already sold 1.45 million copies, many heavily subsidized elsewhere. So it has recouped its development costs. EVs are simpler and cheaper on a per-unit basis, only the development costs are more expensive. And BYD uses the same platform for a bunch of other subsidized EVs, too.
0c3ca83 2 hours ago [-]
So, in other words, it's cheaper.
chii 1 hours ago [-]
it doesn't matter what reason it's cheaper - consumers only care that it is.
4 hours ago [-]
xbmcuser 3 hours ago [-]
Consumers don't want an expensive EV. Now that EVs are becoming cheaper than ICE vehicles, they will take over the market because they are the better product.
java-man 3 hours ago [-]
This is exactly right. 2026 Nissan LEAF is at 30k point, once it drops down to 20-25 it's over for internal combustion cars.
fpoling 1 hours ago [-]
New EV from Renault and Fiat are below 25K Euro in Europe without subsidies. They are still more expensive than similar sized gasoline cars with manual gear shift, but the difference is small and will pays off in few years.
RussianCow 7 hours ago [-]
Seems like a chicken-and-egg problem. Part of the reason consumers don't want EVs is because there are limited options that are any good.
bashtoni 1 hours ago [-]
Had to chuckle at this when outside the US the problem with EVs is that there are so many options people find it tough to choose.
Denza or Zeekr or Genesis or Tesla? Xpeng or Leapmotor or Geely or Kia or Hyundai or Mazda? BYD or MG or GWM or Chery or Jaecoo?
Plus the various Porsche, Audi and VW electric options, Subaru and Toyota, even the new Range Rover. There are far more electric options than petrol, and a lot of them are significantly better at the same or lower price point.
BOOSTERHIDROGEN 50 minutes ago [-]
This, EV market isn't US view , everyone should focus outside
Brendinooo 7 hours ago [-]
For me it's cost. I'd have to sink a couple of grand into getting my home electric up to speed most likely, and then I'll be paying a bunch of extra money to get the car. Turns into a math problem about paying for electric now or gas over the next n years and electric usually breaks even or loses.
russelg 6 hours ago [-]
Trickle charging overnight on standard AC is more than enough for a standard commuter, of course YMMV ;)
taneq 6 hours ago [-]
Depends whether they have access to 230V power. I’d want at least a 3.5kW charger, charging at half that would be miserable.
fennecbutt 5 hours ago [-]
3.5kw*12=42kwh. That's like half the capacity of a fairly decent range EV.
How many people are really driving 240~ miles per day? Practically nobody...that's like 3.5 hours at motorway speeds.
Inb4 the typical response of "every American commutes 99999 miles per day!!!"
Charging at 1kw at home would be perfectly fine for average use cases.
taneq 9 minutes ago [-]
I drive a PHEV with about 22kWh of usable battery and 80km EV only range. I typically do 50-70km a day and a 3.5kW charger covers most days handily. The stock ~1.4kW charger absolutely did not. I can always burn a little petrol if needed, though.
Faster charging gives you more options. 1kW might be fine on the average day for a small, efficient EV but it’d occasionally be limiting.
BobbyTables2 4 hours ago [-]
Seems like it could get annoying if one wants a full charge but has to plan up to 4 days in advance, compared to a 10 minute gas station run.
atonse 3 hours ago [-]
It sounds like you might not own an EV.
The #1 thing (in my opinion) that makes a difference in how easy it is to own an EV is whether you have a driveway or predictable parking spot overnight. Then you just stop thinking about this sort of stuff, ever.
In fact, since I got an EV (I have a two-car garage), I have forgotten to even check my gas car's fuel levels and have driven it near empty a handful of times, I simply forget to even check.
And as others have said, unless you're driving 250mi a day, a regular commute, you can recharge your car on a wall outlet. It does about 12 miles of range per hour, you can easily get about 100 miles of range every night.
microtonal 56 minutes ago [-]
We have had an EV for two years and it’s not a problem at all. We don’t even have a charger at home (apartment complex).
A lot of parking spots have chargers. So we only charge it when e.g. bringing our daughter to sports or when my wife is at her choir. That way the car practically always has enough juice.
When traveling, we’ve found that we are generally more efficient. We stop every three hours anyway to get a drink or eat something and hook it up to a fast charger. Since we would have these breaks with an ICE vehicle as well, we skip the separate stop for refueling.
It’s funny, the first time we made a long trip with our EV we tried to plan where to charge, etc. Now we just go without thinking about it, because there are always some fast charging options when you need it (though e.g. NL is much better than DE).
motionlessveloc 3 hours ago [-]
What do you need to "plan"? Plug it in when you get home, and it'll be charged by the morning.
DiogenesKynikos 3 hours ago [-]
That's when you drive to the nearest fast-charging station, where you can charge from nearly empty to full in <10 minutes.
Spooky23 3 hours ago [-]
It really doesn’t. Public chargers can take care of the oddball issues.
Once you have one of these things, the problems that sound insurmountable turn out to be not much.
gertop 3 hours ago [-]
3.5kW might be enough but you conclusion that 1kW is also enough is absurd.
12kWh is 40 miles, closer to 25-30 in cold climate.
This is absolutely not a range that the average person would be happy with. And no, this isn't range anxiety or bad faith, it's literally less than the average daily commute (30 miles round trip).
remusrm 4 hours ago [-]
you do not consider most commutes in US cities are around 45 min plus and 30-45 miles one way. Also stop and go traffic drains the batter faster
taneq 6 minutes ago [-]
It actually doesn’t (at least for me) due to regen braking and reduced drag. I use about 10-15% less juice on a 28km trip in heavy traffic than at a steady 105km/h.
ashdksnndck 6 hours ago [-]
Why do you care how long home charging takes? It’s not like you have to hang out in or around your car while it’s charging, the way you do when filling it at a gas station. As long as your car charges enough overnight to make up for your average daily usage, you’ll be good.
nomel 5 hours ago [-]
I had level 1, but it was just ridiculously slow. Still charging on a Tuesday, from going low the weekend before, was stupid, and made me unable to go some places. If you go above your average, it super sucks. I don't want to fill up, and I don't want to sit 10x longer than filling up with gas, at a charging station.
maxdo 5 hours ago [-]
i do charge at home, i have 50 Amps , fairly average around my area. I do charge at supercharges once every 3 months. I do travel ~20k miles a year. I never limit myself on when to go just because of charging.
IrishTechie 3 hours ago [-]
In Ireland there are electricity tariffs with an extremely cheap window of 2-4 hours at night, that’s one of the main reasons people want faster charging here anyway.
5 hours ago [-]
5 hours ago [-]
fragmede 3 hours ago [-]
You're assuming a perfectly spherical driver who responsibly comes home after work every day at 6 pm and never forgets to plug in the charger, and leaves every morning at 7am, with a fixed 30 mile commute, and never has any deviation from that plan. In that case, L1 trickle charging overnight is totally viable. For people with more varied personal lives such that they come home late, forget or are too tired to plug in the charger, leave early to take a friend to the airport, or come home, change clothes/take a shower and then go back out for a couple of hours to see friends, the car doesn't charge sufficiently before next day's trip. This is easily solved by installing an L2/L3 charger at home, but those aren't free so want to be factored into the TCO calculation. Pretending otherwise is ignoring the reality of how real people live.
ashdksnndck 53 minutes ago [-]
You don’t need to get to 100% every night if your vehicle has hundreds of miles of range. If you’re charging 40 miles overnight and using 20 miles on average, and your vehicle has 250 miles of range, that gives you massive margin to do stuff that consumes lots of additional miles on random days. In the rare edge case that you actually use up your entire range, you can then go to an L3 charging station and top off quickly.
Obviously, if you’re the kind of person who often drives 100+ miles day after day, then L1 charging isn’t going to meet your needs. Those people should budget for an L2 charger at home. Otherwise, upgrading your home charger is a fun optimization for nerds, but not a prerequisite to own an electric car.
DiogenesKynikos 3 hours ago [-]
All you have to do is to plug in at work or home once every few days. Even at <5kW, you can easily make up for a few days of commuting in a few hours.
Even the cheapest cars have ranges of around 400 km. That's several days of commuting. You can forget to charge for three days and you'll still be fine.
And if you really do forget to charge three days in a row, just drive to a nearby fast charger, wait for 10 minutes, and then you're set to go.
gavinsyancey 6 hours ago [-]
If you can plug your car into a standard 120v 15a outlet that will give you about 35-45 miles of range overnight. Unless you have a really long commute, that's probably enough on average, and if you have a week where you're driving more you can supplement your charging by going by a public fast-charger. 240v 15a gives you twice as much charging and probably doesn't require very expensive electrical upgrades, just finding a circuit you can dedicate to the car and swapping the breaker+outlet.
sippingabonedry 5 hours ago [-]
We had PHEVs that could do this <checks notes> ten years ago. All whilst looking like and driving like normal cars and not iPads on wheels.
If all you need (and all you're capable of charging) is 35mi of range, buying an EV is incredibly stupid, and you are continually placing yourself at risk of running out of battery. If the threat of an unscheduled errand would leave you stranded, you bought the wrong car.
EVs are impractical unless all (frequently unsaid) prerequisites are met.
speedstyle 4 hours ago [-]
You can drive hundreds of miles, but you'd only be able to charge 40-50. If your typical daily use is within that, you can go further at the weekend, or make an unexpected trip, and catch up over a few days (or at a fast charger)
NegativeLatency 6 hours ago [-]
You might not need a L2 charger at home depending on driving habits?
Just a heads up, you don't need an electric panel upgrade anymore for charging. There are UL-certified systems that monitor the power use for the whole panel and load shed the EV charger if needed.
I installed one from Emporia, for about $500.
Alive-in-2025 3 minutes ago [-]
plus there devices where you can even share a dryer outlet dynamically (turns car charger off when dryer is running) - if your dryer outlet is near at garage.
qwertyhjkl 3 hours ago [-]
Can your board run a hairdryer 12h? If you can you can produce 24kwh or basically 100-150km driving per day.
sandworm101 6 hours ago [-]
At least you have a charger option. The non-rich of us who rent appartments have none. The four chargers in my biulding would cost more per-mile than buying gas... if they were working. They are currently down for some random reason (new cell provider, no connectivity in our carpark.)
motionlessveloc 3 hours ago [-]
In all markets where Chinese EVs are available, BEV sales significantly outstrip hybrids in 2026. EU, Australia, you name it.
At the end of the day hybrids are a transitional technology, and it makes sense to ditch the ICE entirely as soon as you can.
EVs don’t work well in a lot of North American climates
motionlessveloc 3 hours ago [-]
Norway is approaching 100% EVs, and while that's juiced by subsidies, the other Nordics are not far behind. Sure, the cold cuts the range a bit, but the vast majority of people don't need the full range every day.
bigstrat2003 3 hours ago [-]
The cold cuts the range by more than a bit. On my wife's Volvo XC40 Recharge, winter range is maybe 60% of the summer range. That's a pretty steep drop, and it means if you like to take trips longer than just driving around town the EV is a lot worse.
Thlom 56 minutes ago [-]
It’s generally not a real problem. Yes, you might have to make one more stop on a long trip, but new EVs can make a full charge in like 10-15 minutes.
trhway 7 hours ago [-]
Current Toyota engines - several years in production already - used in hybrids have 40% thermodynamic efficiency, new Chinese engines (Geely and BYD) - 45% and soon coming out Toyota engine is claimed to hit 50%. With the numbers like this the hybrids ( and plugins, given the falling prices and increasing charge/weight density of the batteries) seem to still have a long and profitable path forward.
Granted it may result in Toyota losing the battle in the long run. On the other hand any large improve in batteries may gradually bring Toyota into EV world just by letting to upsize the plugins' batteries.
Personally i like very much my 2015 Prius Plugin, and the only thing i'd want about it is to have additional 20KWh of batteries (may be one day i'll throw them in myself :)
freetime2 7 hours ago [-]
I drive a Toyota PHEV and love it. All of my daily driving is EV, and then I switch it into hybrid mode on the weekends for longer trips. Hybrids/PHEVs are great.
But I would much rather be doing all of my driving in EV mode. I just think it's going to take another generation of battery improvements before we start seeing affordable 3-row MPVs (which is what I drive) with decent range. The VW Buzz and Kia PV5 have well under 300 miles range, for example.
China does have some pretty awesome looking EV MPVs like the Zeekr 009, which supposedly gets up to 500 miles range. But that won't be available here any time soon.
Improvements in charging speed and improved charging infrastruture will also help a lot.
trhway 7 hours ago [-]
> Zeekr 009
"Dual-motor variants produce up to 603–789 horsepower (450 kW to over 580 kW), delivering rapid acceleration comparable to sports sedans"
speaking about anemic minivan for soccer moms...
SturgeonsLaw 5 hours ago [-]
Almost 800 horsepower is anemic? That's the same territory as a Porsche 911 Turbo S
freetime2 4 hours ago [-]
I think it was a joke
wildzzz 3 hours ago [-]
one guy did build a Hellcat Chrysler Pacifica but it really was just a body swap.
dieortin 6 hours ago [-]
Very impressive for a combustion engine, but still way worse than the ~90% efficiency of a battery electric car
trhway 6 hours ago [-]
If your electricity comes from hydro, solar, wind - yes. If your electricity comes from fossil fuels - best power plant efficiency 60% - then not really. In US fossil fuels generate 60% of all the electricity.
dieortin 6 hours ago [-]
90% * 60% = 54%, which is still way better than the most efficient internal combustion engines. So even in that case an EV is still better. Plus, it gets greener when the grid gets greener.
xedrac 5 hours ago [-]
I'm not super concerned about green energy, but i put solar panels on my roof and charge an ev because it's incredibly practical and a much better experience than the status quo.
fpoling 52 minutes ago [-]
50% power efficiency is for burning gasoline, not oil. Once accounting for energy spent on refining oil into modern gasoline it is like 35%. And with that it will consume less oil to burn it on modern power plant approaching 50% efficiency even accounting for refinery losses and then use that in EV.
speedstyle 3 hours ago [-]
Much less than 100% of electricity is... still more efficient than ICE? I don't see how that changes things.
US electricity averages 384g CO2/kWh, so EVs emit 100-130g/mile, equivalent to 90-110mpg. And that improves year on year, while an ICE is at best as efficient as when it was produced
trhway 3 hours ago [-]
while a very important aspect (and you're right that EV are more and more better on that), that isn't strictly thermodynamic efficiency you're talking about. For example, natural gas is a major fuel for electricity generation and, even at the same efficiency, it produces less CO2/KWh than say gasoline.
TheOtherHobbes 5 hours ago [-]
If your power comes from fossils it's already been shipped half way around the world and refined, so that should be included in any efficiency calculation.
taneq 6 hours ago [-]
If you’re going to use the “well to wheels” number for electricity then you should do the same for ICE vehicles.
Also, 40% of U.S. power generation is renewable? Impressive!
SecretDreams 4 hours ago [-]
I think if OEMs prioritized phevs more as a gateway drug, the transition to EVs would have been a lot less painful in NA. Even just driving a PHEV with 50km electric range makes you appreciate how great an EV can be.
Sadly, there's few good PHEV options. And even Toyota underserves this market.
bigstrat2003 2 hours ago [-]
Frankly, I think a PHEV is flat out better than a full EV. The electric range is good enough for day to day driving, and you have the combustion engine for long trips (which EVs still suck at, taking 30-40 minutes to fully charge even at a very fast charger). It's more complex which is a downside, but I think having the best of both types of vehicle is worth it.
freetime2 15 minutes ago [-]
The complexity of PHEVs is overblown in my opinion. My Toyota PHEV uses the exact same engine and electric motors as the equivalent HEV model. The only difference is the bigger battery and charging port. And Toyota HEVs have proven to be extremely reliable.
And yeah I've got to bring it in for oil changes, but that's no big deal for me. They also take care of other things like inspecting the car, changing wiper blades, air filters, putting on/taking off winter tires, and maintaining my coating. It's usually pretty quick (and they give me a loaner when it's not going to be quick), they are friendly, and they have snacks and wifi. It's also a relatively inexpensive compared to the total cost of owning a car.
There is some complexity for the driver in terms of deciding whether you want to drive in EV or Hybrid mode if you want to get the most out of it - so not something I would recommend for everyone - but no problem at all for me.
The bigger issue I would say it cost. They cost significantly more than HEV equivalents, and it's not something most people are likely to recoup in fuel savings. But still worth it IMO for additional (and instantaneous) power and quieter ride.
PHEV was definitely the no brainer option for me (vs EV) when I looked at the MPV options available in my country, and the state of charging infrastructure. But I look forward to the day when battery tech and charging infrastructure improve the the point where I can comfortably ditch the ICE.
maxdo 5 hours ago [-]
It's not consumers decision, it's a dealers mafia. If everyone on EV, you will not change oil and other gasoline attributes repairs. If you have hybrid, it's a cherry on the top, best of both worlds, pay for regular issues of gas and electric car combined :)
sippingabonedry 5 hours ago [-]
Lol @ all the "maintenance free" EV owners, can't wait for their dilapidated shitboxes to fall apart in 5 years time because they've never been serviced. Many get away with it because they lease them.
Most EV owners don't even know there is a cabin air filter or how to change it, then go on Reddit and YouTube to complain their EV smells like mold and cat piss. It's insane how uninformed some of them are, they act like it's newfound knowledge that you need to fill the windshield washer fluid (which they boast about filling with tap water, or paying $100 to special order magical OEM Rivian fluid instead of a $2 jug at Walmart).
xedrac 5 hours ago [-]
Neglecting a cabin air filter isn't going to make your EV fall apart. You can neglect that on an ICE too. Imagine how much worse these people would have it with an ICE vehicle - neglecting oil changes, oil filter, brake fluid, radiator coolant, air intake filter, spark plugs, valve cover gasket, power steering fluid, putting the wrong gas in, topping off with the wrong oil, etc...
maxdo 5 hours ago [-]
I own my EV for 6 years+ already, still runs like new. Yeah, I do not know how to change my air filter, someone in my family changed it, and I only been in service once when my 12 volt battery died.
I was able to drive there, they did some breaks fluid change for free and thats it, meanwhile my friend with a bmw spent ~$2.5k in service since 3 years he bought it.
The only expense I had is changing tires, that i did in a regular tire shop.
Yeah keep laughing.
kuerbel 2 hours ago [-]
... if you own a Tesla (I do, I know what I'm talking about) you should service your brakes after every winter, you should also change your brake fluid after two years but that can be stretched for a bit. And the AC needs real service after around 4 years.
Still less than an ICE.
fumar 5 hours ago [-]
Are you saying EV owners are new to car ownership? Do you have sources for your claims? I have a hard time following your logic.
vl 4 hours ago [-]
>Corolla is expected to come in several powertrains, including gas, hybrid, plug-in hybrid, and battery electric.
And also it’s just going to be confusing for the customers. Which one to get? Which one is better? It’s hard to imagine how same platform can have efficient structural layout for the large battery and for the ICE engine.
EV is much about software as well, and Toyota is not going to shine in this area either…
kenhwang 4 hours ago [-]
Arguably hybrids rely on software much more than EVs do since it has to all the motor/battery management EVs do, but also coordination with the engine and transmission which EVs do not have, and Toyota has been the leader in that area for almost 3 decades now.
Unless you mean software as in fart apps on the touch screen, then yeah, Toyota lags in that department.
mdasen 4 hours ago [-]
> I would prefer if Toyota just released a new EV model with roughly the same proportions as the Corolla
I think the issue is time and money. Toyota maybe doesn't want to spend the money on a completely different car in the compact sedan category just for EVs - at least not yet. Plus, it might mean waiting several years when they want something out now. Sometimes it's about tradeoffs like time and money. Adapting an ICE Corolla might be reasonably cheap and fast. They might feel the need to have an EV Corolla out sooner than later. They might want to take their time with a new platform EV so that they don't put out something that doesn't meet their quality standards. While the drivetrain might be different, everything else in the Corolla is battle tested.
artisinal 6 hours ago [-]
The upside of using a platform for EV and hybrid engines is that it typically looks a lot better aesthetically than an EV only platform.
Just look at the Mercedes S class versus the EQS. The EQS was ground up designed as an EV and because of the design decisions made in that process is the ugliest Mercedes designed ever.
Same with the Audi A6 which was always a masterclass in design and now is a generic blob of a car with the new EV only model.
riffraff 1 hours ago [-]
Cue the adage "we don't want your electric car, we want your car, electric".
xedrac 5 hours ago [-]
The aesthetic has nothing to do with it being an EV. They just designed it to be ugly.
freetime2 4 hours ago [-]
A lot of the way EVs look has to do with reducing drag, which extends range. Hence the “blob” shape that the parent is talking about that is common to EVs - and the Prius before that. Or retractable handles.
So not just an aesthetic choice, although carmakers do seem to “lean in” to that aesthetic and go all in on the futuristic look with EVs.
mook 3 hours ago [-]
They're already at the kind of range I'd be happy to trade off the other way.
I don't need 400 mile ranges; I'm happy to half that to get a shorter front so I can see the corners, a squared off hatch at the back, and proper headroom. Basically give me a smaller Transit van.
rrr_oh_man 50 minutes ago [-]
I did the math once how much range you'd get with a converted EV Land Cruiser 80. [0]
In my calculation it was around 100 miles range tops due to battery weight, aerodynamics, unoptimized drivetrain, etc.
Yeah, that's why Tesla, Polestar and even BYD work so well.
kristopolous 2 hours ago [-]
The first Hyundai Ioniq did this pretty good. Exceptions exist.
slicktux 4 hours ago [-]
That looks like a completely new car with the sub model being Corolla… it looks nothing like the Corolla of today and past..
brnt 1 hours ago [-]
My Mii/Citigo/e-Up EV is a retrofit, but it's a really great EV.
winrid 6 hours ago [-]
That's also because people prefer Hybrids.
zacharycohn 13 hours ago [-]
Ugh. I saw the headline and I was hoping it would be an entry-level, low cost, highly analogue, "looks just like a normal car but electric" car.
sgarrity 12 hours ago [-]
Yes!
The closest thing I could find to a "normal car but electric" was the Hyundai Kona EV (I know, it's more small-SUV than 'car). So, I bought one.
It's good. There are physical controls for the temperature and volume, and the door handles aren't stupid.
I walked away from a Ford Mach-E because I didn't want to have to explain how to open the doors to ever person I drove for the next five years.
kaladin-jasnah 12 hours ago [-]
The new Chevy Bolt EV is also a "normal car but electric" to me. It's not a car, but it's not a huge SUV either. It has physical controls, you can disable the modem by pulling the OnStar fuse, and it has a decent range and decent fast charging.
anamax 6 hours ago [-]
2027 is the last year for the Chevy Bolt. It's been canceled again.
kyleee 5 hours ago [-]
Fucking cancel culture
WorldMaker 12 hours ago [-]
I wish they had a variant in a more normal sedan or hatchback than its "PT Cruiser thing", but it is still one of the closest in the US market to a normal car.
It's too bad Europe and Asia get all of the nice EV sedans like Dacia Spring and BYD Dolphin. This article even says Toyota hasn't committed to this Corolla EV in the US market, which is shameful.
sailfast 9 hours ago [-]
Ooh didn’t know about the OnStar fuse - good tip!!
vladvasiliu 12 hours ago [-]
But isn't that what the Corolla was?
Note that this is a concept, I've never seen an actual production model look anything like the concept.
My father has a hybrid model, 2023 MY I think. It has physical controls for the radio, for AC and related things, for the heated seats, for the various "driver assist" features (like auto high beams, a parking thing (no idea what that is), radar, lane assist). It has a touchscreen, but that only seems to handle the maps, fancy radio controls (think equalizer and such), and other "car settings", whatever those are. You can absolutely drive it without ever having to interact with the touchscreen while doing normal things. I hate touchscreen controls as much as the next HN poster, but I have strictly 0 beef with the Corolla on this front. Door handles and windows work exactly the same as on my 2005 "dumb" car. Hell, I think it even has a physical toggle for the "automatic night mode" on the rear-view mirror, while mine couldn't be "non automatic".
To GP's point, I don't think it ever was an "entry level" car, just a "normal compact" car. I don't see why adding an electric drivetrain would have someone expect it would somehow become a basic, "entry-level" car.
I don't say we don't need those, but the Corolla never seems to have targeted that market, at least here in Europe. There always were plenty similar-sized cheaper and more basic cars from domestic manufacturers. Is it different in the US?
ac29 9 hours ago [-]
> Note that this is a concept, I've never seen an actual production model look anything like the concept.
Yeah the new Nissan Leaf looked horrible as a concept car, very "2003 idea of the future". The actual production version is just a boring SUV
badc0ffee 12 hours ago [-]
It's a compact sedan (or a compact hatchback, depending on the model) from Toyota, which in Canada at least, makes it an "entry-level" new car.
buran77 11 hours ago [-]
> I've never seen an actual production model look anything like the concept.
As an exception to this rule, the original Audi TT was surprisingly similar to the concept car and even the initial concept sketches. They had a crazy design idea and just went with it.
addaon 10 hours ago [-]
The Genesis GV90 is damn close as well.
kazinator 8 hours ago [-]
Kia Niro is where the Koreans have invested their stuipd; a stateful panel in which volume and temperature knobs are multiplexed, and and so are tactile-free touch places on the panel between them. And it won't stay in the same mode; it changes it behind your back. You think the knob is volume because you last tweaked it a minute ago, but nope, you are messing with the temperature now.
iamEAP 10 hours ago [-]
Had found this in the 2nd generation Nissan Leaf. It would have been perfect but for the slow and non-standard charger.
Looking forward to the Volkswagen ID Polo hitting the used market in a couple of years. Physical buttons, decent range and charge times, and it’s rated to pull reasonable loads.
ak217 4 hours ago [-]
The 2nd gen Leaf (plus/extended range) is still a great car if you don't need it for road trips or continuous long driving. 200 mile range, built on a no-frills Nissan econobox platform, decent looks, very capable for its size. They are available dirt cheap these days, $10K for perfect condition ones. No fast charging, but you can get 10-90% in 5 hours of level 2 charging. It even has a heat pump heater, but no battery cooling or heating, so works best in mild climates.
Physical buttons. Carplay. 0-60 in 6.5 seconds and wide enough tires, so it can keep up.
kpil 10 hours ago [-]
I think Volkswagen ID.4 is alright. It's perhaps a bit small.
Also - I kind of like the ID.Buzz though not sure if it will sell.
Not quite normal but not "future" - the Renault 5 E-tech electric is nice but I don't think it's available in the US.
Brendinooo 6 hours ago [-]
Was just looking at the Buzz today - unfortunately, seems like it's already dead (and there are some insane incentives out there to move what's left).
It was too expensive!
Alive-in-2025 6 minutes ago [-]
the buzz is a notoriously expensive car with low range. it's always been a weird and confusing vehicle form vw.
twoodfin 5 hours ago [-]
VW is planning a slightly modified 2027 model after skipping 2026.
My wife bought one of the first edition models. Other than the lousy range, it’s incredibly cool.
dzhiurgis 10 hours ago [-]
3 button presses just to start driving. I hated kona so bad. Annoying bing bongs, no app and of course we hit wheel of fortune issue.
kazinator 8 hours ago [-]
I was without a car for half a year 2026-02 to 2026-08 and drove a number of electrics from the local car share (where I've had a membership since around 2011). Hyudai Kona, Kia Niro, Chevy Bolt, ...
I had a good camping experience with the Niro. Since Kia doesn't believe in spare tires being default, I was able to stuff sleeping bags, beds and a bunch of other stuff all underneath the hatchback floor, in all that secret space, leaving a ton of room above for everything else.
I like the acceleration and quiet/clean operation of electrics, but in the end I got a 6 speed manual.
Electrics are super dangerous; they accelerate like souped-up competitive track cars. They really need to tone that down: use much smaller motors with less torque, and hack the software to cap the acceleration.
I'm a much calmer driver in a manual. I'm driving for fuel economy, so I'm always in a gear where I have no power. (And in a 6 speed that has about the range of a 5 speed, there is always a good gear to be in at city speeds, where you are at between 1500-1800 RPM). So, I cannot just step on the accelerator on a whim because that will usually do nothing. There is an activation energy for speeding up, due to the chore of shifting down, which discourages doing it casually.
In an electric it's like, oh, I suddenly see this opportunity, and blam: you're on the accelerator and the distance between here and there is erased faster than you can hit backspace.
kccqzy 4 hours ago [-]
At one point my car had a firmware update that made the Eco mode sluggish in acceleration. I thought it made perfect sense; being economical in battery use means limiting acceleration. It received so much backlash that the manufacturer had to issue a subsequent update to increase the acceleration cap.
kazinator 5 minutes ago [-]
[delayed]
dzhiurgis 8 hours ago [-]
[flagged]
kazinator 7 hours ago [-]
They are boring to drive. Using an electric car has the all the fun of running a load of dishes through the dishwasher.
I have to drive quite a bit because kids. If I like the driving, it's less of a chore.
With a manual car, I never grumble when I have to drive, even if it takes me away from something fun.
dzhiurgis 6 hours ago [-]
TBF if you driving with kids, you don't want an interesting ride. But my Tesla is pretty sporty tho, far more fun than Chinese electrics that have softened ride.
kazinator 5 hours ago [-]
"Sporty" isn't what is interesting for me. Any kind of driving is nicer in a manual; including obeying all speed limits, giving right of way, stopping for pedestrians, etc.
I try to make it so that you can't feel that I'm changing gears, and that's next to impossible under "sporty" driving, where you can't hide the difference between hard acceleration and no acceleration during the rev hangs.
6 speeds gearboxes that have about the range of 5 speeds are great for smooth gear changes because the gear ratios are closer, and so if you accelerate gently and shift at low RPMs, the rev hangs are very quick. You can also gently pause and resume accelerations and shift during the pauses. The last shift at cruising speed is free of acceleration also.
I also use cruise control whenever possible. That's all the self-driving I need, thank you very much. Previous manual cars I've driven didn't have it! Manual + cruise = super!
artisinal 6 hours ago [-]
Funny, I will not buy a car that has an app.
dzhiurgis 4 hours ago [-]
To each their own, but hard to grasp why. It's one the most expensive assets you own. Why wouldn't you want to monitor it at least?
Do you also not have house monitoring (you don't need to control every light switch (which can be useful to have lights on when you get back home), but things like temperature, humidity, power use, air quality, water use/leaks is far cheaper than 1 insurance claim).
mook 3 hours ago [-]
Different person, but I don't want a car that has an app precisely because it's so expensive. Cell phones her replaced way more often, and the people running the app stores are very aggressive about not supporting old apps. So within maybe half the life of the car, the app will no longer install.
dzhiurgis 1 hours ago [-]
You can run Tesla’s integration on anything. Mine runs on esp32 so it can control charging (soak up excess solar).
AnnikaL 11 hours ago [-]
The article does say that the electric Corolla is to be priced at $30k, about $3,000 more than the hybrid and $5,000 more than the gas-powered one. That may not be objectively 'low cost', but it's comparable in cost to the lowest-cost new EVs, and probably similar total cost of ownership to the hybrid/gas cars when considering cheaper fuelling.
kulahan 9 hours ago [-]
Maybe they could shave $3-5000 off the cost by not giving it a "high-tech interior", going completely against the design philosophy of the car in the first place.
erxam 5 hours ago [-]
They absolutely could not, the high-tech interior is cheaper. A screen is cheaper than ten million tiny little buttons.
Incidentally, this is also partly why the interiors feel so egregious and cheap in the pieces of shit produced by Germans these days.
drnick1 8 hours ago [-]
Omitting the cellular modem would be a nice way to save a few bucks, and would save me the effort of pulling the fuse or disassembling the dash in order to silence Internet traffic to and from the car. But how will Toyota sell my driving habits to car insurance companies then?
tclancy 5 hours ago [-]
- prototypical car buyer (based on HackerNews bellybutton studies 2026)
torginus 8 hours ago [-]
I'm not in the US, but here in Europe Toyota's hold their value really well (too well I'd say). Is that reflected in the US financing rates, so you can get it for really low payments?
OptionOfT 4 hours ago [-]
Not at all. % on cars in the US is derived from your credit score. Low credit score? You pay, and you pay a LOT.
Of course a dealership could offer low rates, but those are usually through the financing arm of the brand, not the dealership itself.
BobaFloutist 10 hours ago [-]
That's not bad. Those are going to be some fantastic value used cars, eventually.
gwbas1c 11 hours ago [-]
It is low cost! The Tesla Model 3 was twice the cost almost a decade ago.
BTW: The price premium for electric is offset by the lower cost of electricity, and the fact that electricity's cost is much less volatile than gas.
wahern 11 hours ago [-]
Depends on where you live. In states like Connecticut, or certain areas of California (PG&E Bay Area customers), the ROI is very long or simply doesn't pencil out at all. I think for Connecticut, which has high electricity prices but low gas prices, it's just net negative. For me in SF, despite high gas prices the ROI is just too long (5-10 years?), and that's before factoring in the ~$5000+ required for updating my electrical box, which is a conservative estimate because now the city requires the meter to be outside the house, whereas it's currently in the garage.
fnordpiglet 3 hours ago [-]
I drive an EV because in every dimension I care about it’s a superior vehicle. They drive better, sound better, and use a fundamental force rather than flintstone fire smoke stink. It’s time to move on from pouring distilled dinosaur juice into your explosion mobile and join the Maxwell equation crowd. The upgrade of your electric is a one time cost that will enable you to use an EV until you move, and improves your home value, so hard to count it into the cost of the car.
Plus they last basically forever and require almost no maintenance. I like being able to never change oil, tune up, belts, whatever every few months. Every few years I get the cabin filter changed and that’s it. In 10 years the battery might be reduced by 20%, and I might replace the batteries around 15-20 years out, but I expect to literally drive it into the ground. (Mine is a Tesla with unlimited super charging for life, and I live next to a super charger)
I have family overseas and will likely buy them one of these EV Camrys. If they’re good, I might get one for my daughter. At $30k it’s fairly affordable.
wahern 45 minutes ago [-]
I'm not anti EV. I would love to own an EV. I just can't justify the expense. In my case a big part of it is the cost of upgrading the electrical, otherwise I might be inclined to pay the premium.
ak6te 5 hours ago [-]
This used to be true, but gas is $6.30/gallon in California now with no particular reason to think it is coming back down. I haven't actually re-done the numbers, but I have to imagine the ~40% increase in gas prices over the last year have significantly moved the needle in CA.
bluGill 7 hours ago [-]
Until your current car dies, ges old or whatever happens, you decide you need a new one anyway. At that point the ROI is not the total cost of the car but the difference compared to your alternatives.
wahern 5 hours ago [-]
Yes, the difference. I'm not comparing keeping an ICE to purchasing a new EV. The premium for EVs is $5-10k or more relative to ICE models, and the $5-10k is being very charitable.
Non-peak electricity rate in some parts of California is $0.45/kWh or thereabouts, 2-3x what it is elsewhere in the country.
jen20 8 hours ago [-]
Connecticut has more expensive gas than either New York or New Jersey too!
pampas 5 hours ago [-]
It's not just that. EV charging and solar resources have improved while fossil fuels have become more expensive. The maths is very regional. Some countries are better at producing electricity or oil than others.
wakamoleguy 12 hours ago [-]
Looks like most of the images are concepts. I wonder if the looks will change before launch? And they do say the cost is only a few k above the gas models. Something to wait and see, I guess.
zymhan 6 hours ago [-]
Yes, concept cars are more about the stylistic "vibe" than actual design cues.
NewJazz 12 hours ago [-]
Wonder if they'll have different battery sizes like Hyundai does.
davnicwil 8 hours ago [-]
To be honest in my opinion car design got so boring in general since about 20 years ago that it's nice to see it mixed up with these hyper futuristic concept designs.
It makes the future feel fun, and feels like a return to adventurous aesthetics for the pure sake of it. At the very least, it's noticably different and interesting. I hope architecture follows suit.
ceejayoz 5 hours ago [-]
They've been making concept cars that entire 20 year period.
They just get completely watered down for production. As will happen here. That's why they're concepts.
davnicwil 4 hours ago [-]
fair point. It seems to me like more of the ideas now make it through to production though.
andriy_koval 9 hours ago [-]
> entry-level, low cost, highly analogue
there is a chance that slapping one screen is now lower cost than few dozens mechanical knobs, connectors and sensors
phreack 7 hours ago [-]
There is also a chance I won't buy a car without knobs. Car software has been historically so bad. My latest doesn't have a volume knob so my front passengers can't turn the volume at all (the UX is sliding the screen from the side to get navigation bars to appear which contain a volume button that you have to drag laterally - no increase/decrease software buttons).
Otherwise it's a great car and that is literally the one drawback.
I must be the minority surely, but given the choice between knobs and screen, knobs are the deciding factor. Even if it's more expensive, it's UX that you use permanently while operating heavy machinery!
wingworks 7 hours ago [-]
Yeah, please have knobs. I don't mind a bit of screen, but all the frequent stuff I want in knobs.
XorNot 5 hours ago [-]
Eh...I honestly don't care anymore.
Provided there's steering wheel and stalk controls, what do I really need to adjust on a center console while driving? I just want a big nav map or camera feed there.
ceejayoz 4 hours ago [-]
Temperature? Music? Defroster?
XorNot 3 hours ago [-]
My 2004 Prius had AC, radio and defogger controls on the steering wheel. I could control all of it without taking my hands off the wheel.
The only notable thing I couldn't do was adjust the fan level if it was on automatic, but I could turn it off.
IMO if you might need it while driving it should be on the wheel or the stalks. Center console? That's for my passenger to mess with only, or for when I'm stopped.
aforwardslash 5 hours ago [-]
Id argue by an order of magnitude. Knobs require cables, connectors and assembly; they also require dedicated robots and/or a human to test them in the assembly line.
vvillena 11 hours ago [-]
The exterior design language is the same as their current newer models like the C-HR or even the GR GT. The interior is like any other concept car. I don't like it either, but it looks like a normal Toyota.
i4Cgarry 11 hours ago [-]
[dead]
josefresco 12 hours ago [-]
I'd expect it to look similar to the current Prius and not like these concepts.
Toyota does sell those. Just not in EU/NA. Toyota hyryder sells in India for 15k Euros.
dpacmittal 12 hours ago [-]
Hyryder is not an EV, it's hybrid
asdff 12 hours ago [-]
Highly analogue? We all want that but you have to realize we aren't ever getting that. The incentives aren't there.
ericmay 12 hours ago [-]
I don't mind analogue buttons or anything and I think screens can kind of suck especially with Android and auto manufacturer abandonware, but with the Tesla I now own I'm always wondering what people are using all these buttons for - thinking back to my previous Hondas. In the Tesla I've got climate control, heated seats, and music/navigation. Some of the other features like adjusting mirrors I can use the multi-purpose buttons for in the correct context. On any given drive I hop in, put my phone on the charger and don't use it, and then just drive.
What am I missing? Or is it just that folks want buttons? Is it the design?
toast0 9 hours ago [-]
I absolutely need to be able to turn off the headlights when driving on a RORO ferry at night. Auto headlights are great, but for some reason they don't read the WSDOT sign that tells us to turn off our lights; not very smart really. Having a stalk or a knob for wipers is basic and easy; again auto wipers are pretty nice, but sometimes I want to force it because the auto system is being silly.
I really like having dedicated buttons to disable driving assistance. It's handy when you're going through a drive through and you want to disable parking beeps that remind you not to run into the building. It's also handy if lane following gets annoying when road conditions demand ignoring the lane lines. I think NHTSA pushed to remove easy access to disable assistance though?
I don't mind using a screen for things I don't need to do while in motion. Like if I want to set if the car should beep when I lock the doors, or how many times the blinker should blink if I tap it and didn't mean it but it wants to be helpful... screens are wonderful for that. But if I need to focus on a screen to do things while I'm driving, I've lost focus on the surroundings.
someonebaggy 12 hours ago [-]
Of course the buttons are for doing things. The things you listed are pretty much all the traditional buttons. I can remember as a kid paying attention to the center panel between the foot wells (in a Corolla!) - it was pretty much just heating/AC, radio, and a few miscellaneous things like hazard lights. It's no airplane cockpit or space shuttle.
Also if you had electric door locks and windows (we didn't) the driver's door had 4 window levers and a child lock button while everyone else had their own window lever.
AnnikaL 11 hours ago [-]
I also drive a Hyundai Kona. Here are some things I use the physical buttons for that I wouldn't want to use a screen for:
- turning the air conditioning up or down (or off) while I'm driving and feel too hot/cold
- adjusting the volume of music or the radio while driving
- turning on the radio
- turning seat heaters on or off
I don't want to fiddle with a touchscreen to do any of these things while the car is in motion.
ericmay 10 hours ago [-]
I hear ya. I can't speak to other cars but in my Tesla I never have to fiddle with any of that stuff. I just press the button on the screen for example to modulate the climate control even when the car is in motion - I don't need to look at all. There's no feedback (haptic feedback would be a nice improvement actually). In the rare instance that I need to do something "complicated" I'd just put the car into the Autosteer mode. But that's only something that would really be done on the highway in a safe manner. In my older cars I found using the buttons to switch between say albums or something that to not really be that much easier. Maybe slightly worse.
On the other hand, boy when I get a rental car there are so many buttons to mess around with it's like going backwards in time (for me) in terms of ease of use. Even something like having to turn on/off the car itself is now a chore. Why do I need to even turn the car on? It should just always work. Obviously part of that is "it's a new car" but a lot of that stuff seems very needlessly complex. I'm not talking about turning the heat on or off even though a lot of those implementations seem way more complicated than they need be (engineers gonna engineer and over-complicate things unless someone stops them) but other random things.
skydhash 5 hours ago [-]
I have a Suzuki Grand Vitara 2010, and from left to right, the essentials buttons are (grouped by location):
- Window controls and lock/unlock
- Power mirrors adjustment (after someone else has driven the car)
--
- Light stick/knob (it has auto mode)
- Steering wheel control for the head unit (vol +/-,...). It also has cruise but I don't use that
- Wiper and washers stick/knob
--
- AC adjustment. It's a knob for temperature with 2 buttons inside (auto mode toggle and off)
- Fresh/recycled air switch
- AC/ventilation switch
- Ventilation speed. It's also a knob with 2 buttons, but I only remember the mode one (to switch between front/front and feet/heater/...)
- A defrost button
- ESP (ABS) disable button
--
- Window/door lock/ on the passenger door.
There's nothing else. For any of those buttons I would hate to use a touch screen. With physical controls, I can rely on location, haptic, and muscle memory without using vision.
ericmay 3 hours ago [-]
The Tesla I have has a few buttons for those things. For the other items where buttons don’t exist I don’t really need to use vision. The digital button is just right there but I think haptic feedback would be an improvement too. I think people also underestimate how much they look even when using physical buttons. You can’t really help it. You’ll glance down as you adjust that knob from warm to cool, maybe you like it with 4 indicator lights instead of 5 so you’ll just take a peak there. Nobody has their eyes on the road 100% of the time.
Some of the buttons you mentioned you have dedicated buttons for but at least for the Tesla some of those adjustments you do while parked and just swap the button mode. It allows for multi-use buttons which is pretty cool.
I’m not arguing against buttons or something to be clear, just sharing my experience. It seems like some other cars have a lot of unnecessary ones.
asdff 12 hours ago [-]
What you are missing is you can press the button blind while you are looking at the road, the button merely closes a circuit and always works.
But I'm talking beyond just the buttons. Pure analog. No telemetry. No cellular connection. Real rack and pinion again. Real gauges. No drive by wire wherever possible. Maybe the actual ev motor output can be controlled with a simple switch in the circuit vs an entire ecu with throttle profiles and all the bullshit. Basically, your car in 2003, with the gas engine replaced with an electric motor. Pure car. Dead simple systems. Easy access engine bays.
It isn't happening again. These things are ipads on wheels that try and surveil you and come up with datapoints they can somehow make some money off of.
atmavatar 10 hours ago [-]
> What you are missing is you can press the button blind while you are looking at the road, the button merely closes a circuit and always works.
Not just that: my hands get dry enough sometimes that my phone's touch interface doesn't work reliably, in which case, I'd expect a touchscreen interface in a newer car would face similar problems. Physical buttons don't have that problem.
toast0 9 hours ago [-]
> Maybe the actual ev motor output can be controlled with a simple switch in the circuit vs an entire ecu with throttle profiles and all the bullshit. Basically, your car in 2003, with the gas engine replaced with an electric motor.
Your gas car in 2003 probably directly connects the accelerator pedal to the throttle ... but it also has an entire ecu with a whole bunch of stuff to figure out how much fuel to add given the throttle position / airflow and also almost certainly has the ecu controlling ignition too. Even my 1981 van has an ECU to sets fuel volume, although it doesn't have electronic ignition or water cooling.
You can open the throttle all the way, and if the fuel volume doesn't change, you won't get much in the way of extra vrooming.
That said, as simple as possible, but no simpler is a good goal.
bluGill 7 hours ago [-]
Throttle by wire was already a thing but 2003. My 1999 truck had it - diesel benefitted more from that so it came earlier than gas.
toast0 17 minutes ago [-]
Diesels often don't actually have a throttle like gas engines do. The accelerator pedal on a diesel is not connected to a throttle body regulating air intake... instead the air intake is classically wide open (but modern diesels do have airflow controls to adjust emissions profiles) and the accelerator position allows more or less fuel. If your ECU controls fuel delivery (as ECUs have been doing in gas cars since at least the 1970s) and the pedal's job is to ask for more or less fuel, it's going to be connected to the ECU... You can tug on a cable and turn that into an electrical signal at the ECU (or wherever) or you can turn it into an electrical signal at the pedal. Seems simpler to do it at the pedal.
A gas car has the pedal setup to open the throttle valve and let in more air and then some additional system for more air is more fuel... an ECU in open loop measures the airflow and engine temperature and triggers the injectors for a certain amount, in closed loop it will read the o2 sensor and adjust fueling to get the right mix.
If you move to drive by wire, now you have an electrical signal for the pedal, but you didn't necessarily simplify the system because you also have to add a way for the ecu to control the throttle valve or otherwise regulate intake airflow.
blt 5 hours ago [-]
I agree. How do you feel about the Slate truck?
Nit: electric power steering is still rack and pinion. The old system is hydraulic vs electric.
OptionOfT 4 hours ago [-]
Can't get lane assist with hydraulic. That's why. I miss the hydraulic steering from the E93 M3.
ericmay 12 hours ago [-]
I'm not really concerned with hitting the button blind but I understand the desire to have no "tracking" or anything like that. Volume in the Tesla at least there is a button and you can configure some of those things with software. I know the heated seats and climate control are done via the iPad as you call it but I don't have to look at those. Once you hit it enough you just know where it is, or you can use voice control if you're not that comfortable. I can also text on my iPhone pretty well without looking at the keyboard.
But I'm not sure what I'm supposed to do with all these gauges and stuff. I have 0 interest in trying to repair my car or understand how any of it works. I just want to get in, have it be super comfortable, everything works and it gets me from A to B pretty fast. The only gauge I care about is the speed at which the car is traveling. Well the battery too I guess but if I'm taking a trip where that's of concern the car handles the stops for me.
I get that people do enjoy that stuff which is super cool - I'm not hating on it, but figured I'd just provide a different perspective maybe. For me the biggest concern is just this dog shit Android software and abandonware that all the manufacturers create (except Tesla funny enough - I'm not a shill or anything, Elon sucks and I'll never buy another one because of him) which I think is probably the biggest negative to the iPad-ification. Thankfully there's Android Auto and Apple Car Play but still the computers in the cars can be underpowered to use those.
asdff 11 hours ago [-]
That's all fine. Sounds like a digital car is more for you vs an analog drivers car. People have different preferences.
creaturemachine 11 hours ago [-]
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asdff 11 hours ago [-]
My decades old tube amp has figured out how to modulate high wattage power
creaturemachine 9 hours ago [-]
So we've upgraded from the simple switch, that's good.
Now I'm imagining drivers swapping tubes as they stop for a quick charge.
ponector 9 hours ago [-]
No one actually wants highly analog car. Also it's illegal to sell in most countries. Mandatory cameras, safety features, emergency assistance etc
asdff 2 hours ago [-]
I'm no one? Tons of people drive old analog cars by choice.
devindotcom 9 hours ago [-]
the slate truck is about as close as we'll get to that.
lern_too_spel 11 hours ago [-]
The article says the gas version will look the same, so it matches your "looks just like a normal car but electric car" requirement.
api 12 hours ago [-]
Look into the Nissan Leaf, one of the early EV models. I don't know what the 2026 is like but my 2021 has 220-ish miles of range and is... an electric car.
It's a car. That's electric.
Physical buttons. Normal doors. Normal design. Normal handles. Normal controls. Drives great and accelerates better than an economy gas car.
As a bonus, that means almost the entire car is standard. Other than the electric drive train, a regular mechanic can work on everything else: tires, wheels, brakes, suspension, etc.
It's given us basically zero problems. Maintenance so far is a few minor recall items (free fixes) and a tire rotation. We bought it new during COVID.
Only downside to the 2021 model was the CHaDemO (or however you caps it) plug, which is obsolescent. I think recent models have CCS. There is a converter dongle and if I fast charged often I'd pick one up. Apparently they work but they're a little pricey since unfortunately it's not just a simple plug converter. It's a different signaling and locking system, so it has to be a smart dongle.
The Leaf is massively underrated IMO.
wlesieutre 12 hours ago [-]
The 2026 Leaf made some big improvements. Liquid cooled battery, faster charging, longer range.
It has the usual modern car cost cutting where steering wheel inputs are plastic panels with mysterious capacitive regions and no feedback so you can't feel if you've successfully pressed anything, whether you pressed the right thing, or if your fingertips are too dry and don't register. Most of the center console inputs are replaced with a screen with another row of cheap capacitive touch icons below it.
Charging is behind the times again with an awkward 2-port arrangement, but it's different from the previous gen's J1772 L1/L2 and CHAdeMO for L3 up to 50 kW.
For 2026 they replaced the CHAdeMO port with NACS, supporting a maximum of 150 kW L3 charging, but it still uses a separate J1772 port for L1/L2 unlike every other car where the NACS port does both.
All things considered it's a solid entry level EV.
numpad0 8 hours ago [-]
There used to be huge FUD campaigns against Leafs, and against not many others. Perhaps because Leaf at face value could have rendered entry trim Model S and Model 3 pointless.
bluGill 7 hours ago [-]
The old release really deserved that campaign. It wasn't just FUD. Between the lack of a good battery management system, meaning the batteries were the ones that died relatively quickly; and the low range, which was maybe enough to get you to work in back for most people, but it didn't leave a lot of headroom for any other errand you might run. They were a not great car.
Don't get me wrong, my brother has one and it is an okay car. It's just not great. There are a number of limitations which is why he gave it to my mom and drives a bolt. (the use value of a leaf is poor enough that it isn't worth trying to sell.)
Any other electric car is suffering from the leaf's bad reputation, and yet they don't have the problems I named.
lenerdenator 12 hours ago [-]
If it makes you feel better, this is a concept. They probably won't produce the vehicle they showed, especially since customers are making it known that they want regular buttons/door handles/HVAC vents/etc.
... probably.
apatheticonion 2 hours ago [-]
I literally want a 1995 Toyota Starlet, with its spartan interior, just with an electric drivetrain and a price tag that reflects. A standard 2 din screen with android auto is enough tech for me.
BLKNSLVR 5 hours ago [-]
File under: headlines that should have appeared 10 years ago.
Given that the Prius made it's first appearance in 1997.
thefourthchime 2 hours ago [-]
I disagree. Toyota is one of the only companies that didn't plunge into EVs and get completely destroyed. Instead, they've stayed on the hybrid train, which has turned out to be a highlight for ICE cars.
doublepg23 12 hours ago [-]
I picked up a '25 Subaru Solterra (rebadged Toyota bz4X) for a decent lease deal and while I'm surprised how little I think about the EV parts the "car parts" are dreadful.
I really need to do a write-up on the dichotomy of EV things being good (charger works, no real battery QC issues, it's a RAV4-but-EV) while all of the shared ICE parts (anything in the software stack) are riddled with bugs or head-scratching defaults.
Overall, a fine car for me, but (as much as I do not like El*n) Telsa is so significantly beyond their offerings it's hard to overstate.
EDIT:
I forgot to add but I think the cost savings for EVs can be a wash, make sure you check the following:
1.) can't charge at home / live in an apartment.
1a.) If you do install a L2 charger at home, you will significantly reduce your cost savings.
2.) you rely on fast-chargers in any significant capacity.
3.) Double check the math on any lease, loan, etc. on new EVs vs. a beater gas car. Especially if you pay an EV tax in your state or country. (Post-COVID the $2K beater car seems to have gone extinct here...)
jjtheblunt 12 hours ago [-]
in contrast, i bought a 2026 Subaru Uncharted, which is a clean sheet EV design, collaboration on powertrain components between Subaru and Toyota, and it's awesome. My BMW i4 xdrive 40 handled worse, had software bugs, cost about 50% more, and had a cheaper interior with truly stupid engineering choices, but you could choose from more colors. I had a clean sheet ev design i3 for about 8 years before that and it was cool.
I wonder, from your comments, and my cars, if the trick is ev-only designs, as the Solterra has various altered versions, as did the i4, whereas my i3 and Uncharted were designed only to be EVs.
edit: charging L2 at home is great, to your point.
doublepg23 12 hours ago [-]
It's weird to me because they apparently have the same issues across their gas cars that sell enormously well.
My friend with a '25 taco has issues with remote start, fob range and infotainment stability.
My friend with a '24 corolla has the same issues on his car.
jjtheblunt 12 hours ago [-]
maybe it's how recently the platform was designed, but who knows?!
devindotcom 9 hours ago [-]
I hadn't heard of the uncharted, sounds like it's closer to a C-HR electric than anything else? not that there's anything wrong with that. I love subes and drive an old one but they have a certain vibe that I wonder if the Toyota collab takes away.
all kind of academic since I'm planning on getting a slate but it's nice to know Subaru is bouncing back from that Solterra disaster.
delecti 12 hours ago [-]
I never will (also because of Elon), but this comment makes me curious to experience a Tesla. Are they really so much better? I've heard endless bad things about their build quality.
After returning a '25 Mercedes EQB (employee lease), I bought a used '23 Solterra, and it seems like a better than linear downgrade (that is, the overall experience is a bit worse, but the price is lower by more than how much worse it is). The software and interface are all completely fine, and stay out of the way of driving and Android Auto. And I'm rather glad for the lack of some of the bells and whistles, because the dashboard screen on the MB had too much going on.
doublepg23 12 hours ago [-]
I've been in my friends Model 3 many times and it's full of "oh why didn't anyone think of this before" and EV-centric choices. There's stupid stuff too (no turning stalks or shifter) but even ignoring the software choices it's really that much better of a car.
> The software and interface are all completely fine
Perhaps whatever platform mine, my friends corolla and friends taco are on is just busted but I wish it had even 70% reliability of just working when I'm using anything software related.
rootusrootus 5 hours ago [-]
> no turning stalks
They reversed that decision, the turn signal stalk was brought back.
rootusrootus 5 hours ago [-]
> Are they really so much better?
They have ups and downs.
The build quality has improved significantly, though I would not put them on the level of a Toyota or anything. Maybe Ford.
The software is mostly quite a lot better, the quality of the infotainment exceeds almost anything else you can buy. The remote control ability is also exceptional. But they have glaring omissions like a refusal to support CarPlay. Or a persistent need to prove that vision can replace a bog standard IR rain sensor (it still cannot).
They do get some things right that for whatever reason seem difficult to get from other makers (like a simple climate hold when you park, or dog mode). And love it or hate it, FSD is light years ahead of anything else you can buy as a consumer. I won't pay for it, because I like to drive, but it now exceeds any expectation I ever had for it. I would wager that if I put grandma's house in the nav system and told the car to drive all the way there (about 175 miles distant), it would most probably take me all the way from my garage to grandma's driveway (and park) without me doing anything other than putting it in drive and hitting start.
I loathe Elon and this was a pretty big consideration, but I do not make purchases based on single factors, and overall the value proposition was impossible to ignore. Partly this is because there is basically zero competition for an M3P.
ggreer 6 hours ago [-]
I got a Model 3 in 2020 and I still don't see anything competitive from other manufacturers. There are so many little things that it does right. You pair your phone with the car, so when you walk up to it and pull on the door handle, it opens. If you're not next to the car and someone else tries to open the door, it's locked. Each driver has their own profile which saves things like UI preferences, acceleration settings, seat position, side mirror angles, climate control, etc. So if my wife was the last person to drive the car and I open the driver's side door, the seat moves to my position. The mirrors adjust to my settings, and so on.
Even though my car has the older hardware, the self-driving is far beyond anything else I've used. It makes road trips far less tiring. I basically sit in the driver's seat while it drives from charging station to charging station. I've gone hundreds of miles without touching the steering wheel. Usually I intervene because I want to park in a specific spot, as the car tends to choose spots that are less convenient. Also it likes to park in my neighbor's driveway instead of mine. (The driveways are about 5 feet apart.)
The phone app lets you control all kinds of stuff remotely. I like to turn on the climate control before going to the car, that way my kid's car seat won't be uncomfortably warm on a sunny day. You can view the cameras from your phone, lock/unlock the car, open/close the windows, and open the trunk & frunk. And it works anywhere there's cell network connectivity, not just within direct radio range of the car.
I'd love it if more cars had these sorts of features, but I don't see it happening any time soon. Tesla seems to be a software company that happens to make cars, while everyone else is a car company that happens to make some software.
lnsru 12 hours ago [-]
I own very first model Y, but wouldn’t buy the facelift. Changing gears swiping touchscreen is too much despite many real improvements. Build quality is definitely not premium, but it was single electrical vehicle I was able to afford and use as a substitute for petrol car. Many others at the time were good only as 2nd or 3rd car in the household.
BuffaloEric33 11 hours ago [-]
I had a 21 Y, and now a 26. If you actually buckle your seat belt and turn on the feature, the car will auto select the correct gear without needing to do....anything. After a short while you get used to it on the rare occasions you do need to swipe the screen to change gear. Another thing I didn't notice during test drives, is that it does actually have permanent gear shifting controls - they're just by the hazard light (not a great place to use them often, but still there).
At least for me, the 26 is so much better built and fixed the insane body roll the 21 had that I'm quite happy with it.
My wife has also been full-EV for 5 years, first with a Kia Niro EV and now with a Hyundai Ioniq 9. Those are pretty good as "real car" EVs as well, though not without their own quirks (and, unfortunately, the Ioniq 9 recently had to have the ICCU replaced, as Hyundai still seemingly hasn't figured that problem out over the years).
delecti 10 hours ago [-]
EVs only really have forward and reverse, so I assume that's the automatic switching it does. Why in the world would you want a car to automatically switch between them? Even if that worked perfectly that doesn't sound all that helpful, and anything less than absolutely perfect sounds at best really annoying, and at worst dangerous.
Not to say that the Solterra's is ideal either. It's an awkward dial shifter below the HVAC controls, but at least it's a physical interface.
Rohansi 8 hours ago [-]
> Even if that worked perfectly that doesn't sound all that helpful, and anything less than absolutely perfect sounds at best really annoying, and at worst dangerous.
It works but it's a lot slower than just using the stalk or even the on screen shifter. But that's probably because I got used to not needing to come to a stop before switching gears.
nobleach 12 hours ago [-]
I've had not a single "quality issue" with my Model 3 other than the cabin air filter. The car interior stinks worse than any other car I've owned, if it isn't replaced on time! I too have heard a ton of bad things on Reddit. Then I went on the subreddits where people actually owned them. Those folks really seemed to like their cars. I can't say I LOVE the car... removing turn signals, wiper controls and ability to physically shift into reverse seem like brain-dead moves. Otherwise though? It's a lovely care to drive.
rootusrootus 5 hours ago [-]
> can't say I LOVE the car... removing turn signals, wiper controls and ability to physically shift into reverse seem like brain-dead moves. Otherwise though? It's a lovely care to drive.
I feel similarly. When I use the touchscreen to reverse direction, I grimace every time at the silly design. Or when the wipers do a dry wipe on a bright sunny day. But when I drive, it's all smiles, especially when I punch it (I have an M3P, and while it is no Plaid, it is fast enough to make people giggle).
jaggederest 12 hours ago [-]
We looked at the Solterra in 2025 and it was genuinely awful, I can't believe anyone who works at a car company looked at it and thought "this is substantially better and will sell more than the Pontiac Aztek despite aesthetically and practically being worse in many regards". The interior center console feels like a prank, almost.
paimapi 1 days ago [-]
and all it took was two decades and millions of spend in anti-EV lobbying before they finally gave in, huh
(also kind of wild to me that an EV focused blog wouldn't mention this a single time since Toyota is (was?) arguably one of the staunchest and most stubborn anti-EV manufacturers out there)
RajuChacha108 13 hours ago [-]
Toyota was broadly right in their approach to EVs. They were pioneers in hybrids. They had excellent hybrid cars like Prius that have been around forever. Their low end cars are extremely fuel efficient too that making them hybrid does not really offer marginal benefits.
Now most companies have written off their crazy investments in EVs. Honda has discontinued Prologue and so on.
paimapi 12 hours ago [-]
at first, sure, but they've since donated large amounts of money to climate-change deniers who fight hard against electrification and emission standards
I do feel like y'all need to read the news more instead of just going by brand rep
cknoxrun 6 hours ago [-]
They have also been slowly, but surely, moving all their vehicles to HEV/PHEVs (at least in Canada). For example, you can only buy a new Camry, Sienna or Rav-4 (most popular SUV in the world) in hybrid/PHEV form.
foolfoolz 5 hours ago [-]
PHEV are going away across the industry and solidifying into pure EV or classical hybrid. the market for those who will pay more for the PHEV prefers EV
radiator 13 hours ago [-]
They were neither anti-EV in the past nor will they stop producing Internal Combustion Engine vehicles in the future
paimapi 13 hours ago [-]
based on what? there's so many sources noting their anti-EV lobbying
People who have vested interest will make such accusations.
I own EVs but I am opposed to "mandates", opposing coercion makes you anti coercion not the objective of coercion.
someonebaggy 12 hours ago [-]
[flagged]
paimapi 12 hours ago [-]
you read the articles, correct? the ones where they are actively supporting climate-change denying, pro-January 6th Republicans who are actively working on repealing CAFE, emissions standards, and other climate protective standards?
also the accusation of 'vested interest' is very funny to me as someone who is proverbially hiding all his liquidity under a mattress (ie bonds) until this AI bubble pops and whose sources are 1) a non-profit and 2) a Union of Concerned Scientists blog
7734128 12 hours ago [-]
Anyone can write a blog and they can write anything they want there. There's no more value in those links than in a Reddit comment.
paimapi 11 hours ago [-]
so you'd treat an academic reference text on chemistry as just as prone to bias and as worthless as a reddit comment?
if you have other sources that talk about how great Toyota is, that'd be wonderful
steelframe 11 hours ago [-]
Or even an HN comment, for that matter.
CamperBob2 12 hours ago [-]
Toyota isn't so much pro-internal combustion as pro-hydrogen. They bet on the wrong horse -- a really stupid horse -- and it cost them heavily.
cisc 9 hours ago [-]
> They bet on the wrong horse -- a really stupid horse -- and it cost them heavily
How? Toyota has been the best selling automaker for the last six years straight:
their total ledger might be fine but it's not like their R&D just came free out of the good will of thousands of people
nunez 5 hours ago [-]
They were AMAZINGLY anti-EV a few years ago. They couldn't shut the heck up about hydrogen being endgame and even shipped a flagship car that used the technology to prove it. (It barely sold, you couldn't refuel it outside of the Bay Area and the entire program was eventually written off.)
NewJazz 12 hours ago [-]
I don't believe either of those statements.
asdfginoi 12 hours ago [-]
I am with Toyota on this one. They have done more to reduce carbon emissions than any other automaker. Hybrids, particularly plug-in hybrids, achieve most of the benefits of EVs without any of the tradeoffs, and they make far more efficient use of our limited supply of batteries.
Public policy should not insist on one technology to the exclusion of viable alternatives.
Fuel cells are stupid, though.
paimapi 12 hours ago [-]
please, I beg of you HNers, maybe read the news instead of just going by your brand sentiment
> Over the last three electoral cycles, Toyota has become the top auto industry financier of climate deniers[4]. It has helped to finance campaigns of 207 climate-denying congressional candidates, more than twice as many as Ford and nearly 50% more than General Motors, the only other automakers with federal political action committees (PACs)
> [Toyota] is bankrolling an army of climate denying lawmakers and lobbying aggressively against emissions and fuel economy standards
asdfginoi 10 hours ago [-]
From a few posts upstream:
>and all it took was two decades and millions of spend in anti-EV lobbying before they finally gave in, huh
EVs are a stupid idea and will remain so for the foreseeable future. If you want to complain about their funding of climate deniers, complain about that. But don't criticize them for their justified dismissal of the EV mania.
I am disappointed Toyota is making EVs now. That doesn't mean I am a fan of the company; I don't even own a car.
rootusrootus 6 hours ago [-]
> EVs are a stupid idea
I am so glad that there are manufacturers who disagree with you, because I would cry real tears if I were forced to go back to ICE.
paimapi 10 hours ago [-]
what's your objection to EVs? what are the alternatives?
0x457 5 hours ago [-]
> what are the alternatives?
HEV, PHEV, ICE. All are valid alternatives. Hydrogen cars are stupid though.
erxam 5 hours ago [-]
Gas is closing in on >6$/gal and my country produces no oil but a ton of electricity. How are any of those supposed to help?
NewJazz 12 hours ago [-]
We don't really have a limited supply of batteries. At least not so limited as to prevent every passenger vehicle having a large enough one.
I mean for gosh sakes, they make semitrucks, boats, and planes with batteries. Huge grid storage systems as well.
rwmj 13 hours ago [-]
I was going to say "about time", but actually about 3 years too late.
numlock86 12 hours ago [-]
> [...] since Toyota is (was?) arguably one of the staunchest and most stubborn anti-EV manufacturers out there
Wait till you hear about German car manufacturers. It's not even that long ago that e.g. Mercedes said that their target audience doesn't want EVs and they will never (!) give in to that market. Now look at them. All of them.
aeyes 12 hours ago [-]
That could be caused by EU regulation because they have to meet fleet emission standards. Pretty much the only way to get there is to sell some EVs.
it's sunk cost on their hydrogen cell R&D - they want there to still be room for that instead of going with electrification but they have to diversify their portfolio to keep up with markets
> "Toyota in particular has been vocal that they are uninterested in making ZEVs available in California. [...] Toyota has invested in hydrogen fuel cell electric vehicles [instead]."
loloquwowndueo 13 hours ago [-]
Yep bz, chr, bz woodland and the upcoming highlander Bev, at least - but they’re late to the game for sure.
rwmj 13 hours ago [-]
They have large electric cars / SUVs, but not small EVs.
NewJazz 12 hours ago [-]
To be fair that's true of most manufacturers. Nobody wanted to go head to head with the Tesla M3, except Hyundai I guess but then they discontinued the Ioniq 6 IIRC.
WorldMaker 11 hours ago [-]
It's true in the US market. Europe and Asia are seeing a flood of smaller EV cars from Dacia, Renault, BYD, VW, Fiat and far more. The US is getting left behind.
josemanuel 12 minutes ago [-]
I do the same thing in London.
London is beautiful!
bigmadshoe 11 hours ago [-]
Why does every car manufacturer peddle these overly complex designs with massive displays, a futuristic aesthetic, etc?
People drive Corollas because they're cheap and reliable. Give me that with an electric motor.
z0mghii 11 hours ago [-]
That's what the market expects from an EV
dingaling 11 hours ago [-]
This is what the market is being told to expect from an EV.
The Dacia Spring is what the market actually seems to want:
The entry level model doesn’t even have an infotainment panel, it has a shelf you can place your phone on and use an app if you wish.
sl-1 33 minutes ago [-]
Sounds like optimal solution to me.
jerlam 8 hours ago [-]
Toyota's EVs share most of the same components as their non-EVs, like door handles and screens. They have become the fourth best selling EVs behind the Teslas and the Hyundai Ioniq 5 in recent months.
bigmadshoe 8 hours ago [-]
It isn't what I want and it seems many people on- and off-line agree with me.
throwaway27448 10 hours ago [-]
How do you know if there isn't a sensible car to compare it with? Nobody wants something that looks like a tesla
BeetleB 8 hours ago [-]
I drive an EV. It sucks. Sucks. Sucks. Worst driving experience of all cars I've owned. The lack of buttons and crappy HVAC controls are things I notice daily.
Outside of Tesla owners, I don't know a single EV owner who praises these elements. The EV market does not want this.
0x457 5 hours ago [-]
I think its a tesla issue, not EV issue.
runeks 12 hours ago [-]
> With over 57 million sold worldwide since it went on sale in 1966, the Toyota Corolla is widely considered the best-selling vehicle to date.
Is it or is it not the best-selling vehicle to date? Should be pretty simple to determine.
You're wrong. The best-selling vehicle is the Flying Pigeon bicycle, the standard bicycle from Mao-era China with more than 500 million produced since 1950.
umeshunni 9 hours ago [-]
motor vehicle
Geee 5 hours ago [-]
Read the original question again.
artisinal 6 hours ago [-]
Depends on what counts in that 57 million. Just the base Corolla, or also the Corolla Verso that was actually based on the Avensis platform? What about the Toyota Auris? Toyota Conquest? Holden Nova? Geo Prizm?
I wonder if you combine the numbers of the VW Golf, Rabbit, Bora, Jetta, Corrado and Scirocco if it beats that 57 million.
jefftk 12 hours ago [-]
The main question is whether to count the Corolla at all, given that it's changed so much over the years. The original VW Beetle at ~21M and minimally changed from 1938 to 2003 has a strong claim.
apparent 12 hours ago [-]
I was surprised to read the headline because this is going in a different direction than most car companies. For example, VW, Ford, GM, and others have been axing electric vehicles that they started selling a few years ago. They discovered that most people who wanted EVs had already purchased them, and the rest of the market wasn't interested enough to pay the price premium.
Then I read the key quote and realized that Toyota isn't transforming the Corolla into an electric vehicle. They're simply going to offer an electric option. That's much less of an interesting headline, which explains why it wasn't chosen.
> “Whether it’s a battery EV, plug-in hybrid, hybrid, or internal combustion engine vehicle―whatever the power source―let’s make good-looking cars that everyone will want to drive!” Toyota’s CEO said at the Japan Mobility Show.
ak217 3 hours ago [-]
The US big 3 and VW canceled several EV product lines because the government policy flipped from subsidizing them to subsidizing ICE production. With the Iran war, the economics has shifted again and some of the products they canceled could have been made profitable, but it's too late for most of them now. This actually creates an opening for Rivian's downmarket R2 line expansion.
Meanwhile the Chinese companies are disrupting the overseas market for all of them (which is why Toyota is fretting). Many don't realize the disruptive potential of China's battery, EV, and solar panel supply chain combined with the oil shock - many subtropical countries are on the verge of flipping their economies to be linked to China's because of this. The long term consequences for American and European manufacturing supply chains will be major - not just in terms of present but future orders, since many of those countries are continuing to grow their consumer base faster than US/EU.
apparent 2 hours ago [-]
How are they subsidizing ICE production over EVs? Or is it just that the subsidies are easier to get if you don't need to include rare earth elements, which EVs require, in your inventory?
stetrain 12 hours ago [-]
> For example, VW, Ford, GM, and others have been axing electric vehicles that they started selling a few years ago. They discovered that most people who wanted EVs had already purchased them, and the rest of the market wasn't interested enough to pay the price premium.
I don't think that's a fair assessment of the EV market, which continues to grow, albeit slowly, in the US and much faster elsewhere. At best it is constrained to the US car market where the government has been yanking incentives, tariffs, and emissions requirements back and forth recently, providing an unstable market for manufacturers to invest in.
Some brands put together EV models that were inherently unprofitable, and hoped that incentives and scale would save them, mainly Ford. Ford is currently investing a lot into building their next-gen EV platforms which should be both more affordable and profitable. GM has not cancelled any EV models that I'm aware of, except the Bolt which is planned to be replaced by a new affordable EV model in a similar market slot.
VW is introducing a lot of new EV models in Europe and other markets, but not so much in the US where policy has us a less favorable market for them.
Toyota + Subaru have introduced multiple refreshed or brand new EV-only models over the last year including in the US.
And of course China is going crazy for EVs with many competing domestic manufacturers, a full battery supply chain, and many affordable models to pick from.
DennisP 12 hours ago [-]
Meanwhile, batteries keep getting better and cheaper, in most places the charging networks are growing, and charging is getting faster.
stetrain 12 hours ago [-]
Yep, I find that a lot of EV-hesitants in the US have no idea how much the travel charging network has grown.
A lot of them also just aren't even aware that DC Fast Charging is a thing and make comments about needing several hours to charge your car.
anthomtb 8 hours ago [-]
And the last criticism is particularly silly. Do you need several hours to charge an electric car? Yes you do. Do cars spend most of their time parked in one place? You bet they do!
Sohcahtoa82 7 hours ago [-]
> Do you need several hours to charge an electric car? Yes you do.
No you don't. 20 minutes at a DCFC will get you to at least 80% for most EVs.
You need several hours to charge it at home, but it's gonna be at home for several hours anyways. With an L2 charger, you can go from 0-100% overnight.
apparent 6 hours ago [-]
DCFC does not charge "most EV" to 80 in 20 mins. There are some new ones that can do 10-80 in that time, but if you're lower than 10, or if you don't have a better-than-average late-model EV, it's going to be longer than that.
L2 charging usually happens overnight, but larger capacity batteries won't fill if you don't plug in early enough.
rootusrootus 6 hours ago [-]
More realistically it is 25 if you are starting at under 10. For a Model 3, at least, which is pretty much the very definition of "most EVs"
bluGill 7 hours ago [-]
Like most people, my car is used for not just my regular trips around town, which I can certainly charge overnight no problem and be fine. My car is also used for the longer road trips.
It is 300 miles to my mom's house. Some electric cars could just make that in perfect conditions but give me a headwind or a cold day both of which happen once in a while and I can't make 300 miles on a charge and I will have to stop in the middle. At that point a fast charge is required. It is not acceptable to say I have to stop somewhere that I don't want to be for many hours to charge my car to get it the rest of the way. That is a trip where, if you have to make it, there isn't a better option. Flying would be even longer than driving by the time I get to the airport and rent a car on the far end, not to mention a lot more expensive.
At least in the U.S. it is very common for people to make a one or two thousand mile trip once a year for vacation. Particularly if you have a family, flying is not a reasonable cost and so you'll take those several days of driving to save money. Those road trips also let you stop someplace and see some weird small-town exhibit which is fun in its own way
Rohansi 6 hours ago [-]
> It is not acceptable to say I have to stop somewhere that I don't want to be for many hours to charge my car to get it the rest of the way.
I think the issue you're stuck on is driving an EV like an ICEV. When you're low on gas you stop, fill up, and continue. It's slightly different with an EV because you shouldn't fill up all the way on a stop. That takes so much more time because the batteries charge slower as they fill up. So if you want to get somewhere quicker you should actually be charging less at stops and stopping more often. I don't know about other cars but Tesla has a good route planner built in that does this for you and preconditions the battery while you travel to a fast charger, which is also important to reduce charge times.
bluGill 6 hours ago [-]
No, I'm not stuck on that. A gas car refuels in five minutes max. Now certainly an EV from say 20 to 80% which is what most people talk about is done in 15 minutes in the best case but that's still three times longer and it's someplace I don't want to be. That's assuming that there is a fast urge during the location. There are a huge number of level 2 chargers scattered around the U.S. and level 3, although they're becoming more common, are somewhat rare.
In that 300 mile trip, there is a gas station every 10 miles. There is a level 3 charger every 100 miles. Which is to say, I certainly can make the trip in my electric car, but I'm I have to make sure I stop where there's a charger because unlike a gas car I can't say the gauge is getting low. I'll stop at the next exit. I have to say the gauge is at half per charge - I better stop at the next charger because I don't know if I can make the one after that.
Rohansi 5 hours ago [-]
I've done a 400 mile trip in a Model 3 Long Range and only needed three stops at L3 chargers. In winter, in Canada. With over eight hours of driving it's not unreasonable to stop for a few breaks, and you should be able to plan your breaks near chargers.
rootusrootus 6 hours ago [-]
> A gas car refuels in five minutes max
Except most people stop for 15 minutes to refuel when they're on a road trip.
apparent 4 hours ago [-]
I have never spent this much time refueling my car. I don't think it's ever taken me more than 3 minutes to actually put gas in the tank. While it may be true that sometimes you have to wait 30-45 seconds for a pump, the wait times on chargers can be much longer because people spend 20 to 30 minutes at each charger.
rootusrootus 3 hours ago [-]
Yes, I understand that some people will present contrary anecdotes, but AAA says the average is 15 minutes. And I trust them more than I trust anecdotes from random strangers who show every indication of motivated reasoning.
And to share my own anecdote, I've never once waited for a charger.
apparent 2 hours ago [-]
Have you ever spent 15 minutes at a gas pump? I can't imagine spending more than 4, and I have an SUV.
Rohansi 2 hours ago [-]
There will definitely be a lot of variance to it. Tank sizes. Pump speed. Some people exclusively fill up at Costco where lines at the pump can be longer. Some shop around a few stations to find a slightly better price. Some make a separate trip to a station at night because they lower prices a bit then.
apparent 7 hours ago [-]
But some people here claim that you don't need a charger at home to have an electric vehicle. That's equally silly, but in the opposite direction. If you don't have a charger at home or work, your experience with an EV will generally be quite subpar.
john01dav 12 hours ago [-]
> let’s make good-looking cars that everyone will want to drive!
This is a very unfortunate goal for Toyota specifically to have. I am extremely loyal to driving late 90s/early 2000s toyotas (I have owned at various points a 1997 corolla, a 1999 camry, and a 2000 tundra, and my daily driver today is such a car as well), due to them being extremely cost effective and also extremely reliable. A well-maintained, or even moderately maintained, late 90s/early 2000s Toyota car is, in my experience, almost as reliable as a new car that costs 4x+ the price, and it has the benefit of much less DRM, spyware, and other software bullshit, as well as being much easier to repair. I am also unaware of any modern car that is remotely like this, as well as unaware of any electric car that is remotely like this, except maybe Slate (though this is not available yet, so I am withholding judgement until I can see 3rd party reviews and maybe try one).
But, to summarize, I really like some of Toyota's old work for intensely practical reasons, and I think that this is a gap in the market of cars manufactured today (someone please tell me I am wrong by pointing to a good option on these criteria, preferably an EV!), and I couldn't give a rat's ass about the car being "good-looking", so it's unfortunate (though not surprising) that Toyota is deeming that their goal.
jaggederest 12 hours ago [-]
Toyota, like many companies that succeed based on merits beyond the aesthetic, secretly dreams of being an aesthetics-first company like, say, Porche or Ferrari, and always tries their hardest to reject reality so that they can do the sexy-but-awful thing instead of the amazing-but-ugly thing.
You see this recently over the last couple years in tech where everyone is "an AI company" even when they make something totally unrelated - same impulse, different industry.
octoberfranklin 12 hours ago [-]
I've noticed this too.
It is completely baffling.
There must be something seriously wrong with our economy that companies operating like this don't go bankrupt and/or get driven out of business.
someonebaggy 12 hours ago [-]
The problem with our economy is basically wealth concentration, partly funded by central banks and partly by lack of billionaire taxation. In a traditional economy, money was meant to always flow circularly, throughout the whole economy. Rich people could exist, but they could only exist by commanding a large upward flow of money from poor/middle people, so they had to offer something really good in return. These days the money mostly circulates between different rich people with only some loss back down to the poorer classes, so to get money they have to impress other rich people instead of poorer people. Companies who go full AI don't attract customers (unless B2B), they attract investors because the investors have all the money and the customers don't.
dansquizsoft 6 hours ago [-]
> partly by lack of billionaire taxation
How dare you say this? These billionaires all work extremely hard for their money!
anabis 4 hours ago [-]
Main car of anime Initial-D is a Toyota. They revived it a while back. So they are doing that kind of aesthetic.
apparent 10 hours ago [-]
Yep, the only thing I love about newer cars are dynamic cruise/lane keep assist, blind spot monitoring, and memory seats. Cars from 20 years ago had better controls and were likely cheaper to repair in most cases.
ManuelKiessling 12 hours ago [-]
> For example, VW, … have been axing electric vehicles that they started selling a few years ago
> most people who wanted EVs had already purchased them
You should really reconsider where you get your information from.
“Volkswagen reported more than 70,000 orders for its new Electric Urban Car Family within just a few weeks, while European BEV orders increased by more than 50% in Q2.”
America, where they are pulling models. I have PHEVs and enjoy them, but I am aware that many people are not going to buy EVs with their current specs. Either they live somewhere cold, where range will fluctuate and not be sufficient at times of the year, or they live somewhere that has power outages frequently enough (or at times of emergency) that they do not consider pure EVs. This is especially true for people with only one car. Families that have multiple cars are obviously more open to having one car that's an EV.
stetrain 10 hours ago [-]
EVs are actually great during power outages. Many have power outlets so you can run your fridge, charge devices, etc. while the power is out. Any gas station without its own backup generator will be unable to pump gas during an outage.
If you have home charging, it's more likely that you'll have a mostly full battery than that the power outage will occur when you have a mostly full tank of gas.
It's a bit more work and expense but some EVs can even act as automatic or manual whole-home power backups.
Unless you live somewhere that regularly loses power for a week+, an EV might actually be a net benefit.
syncsynchalt 8 hours ago [-]
I don't understand the argument, wouldn't you _want_ an EV if you have frequent power outages?
You could run your house for weeks off a 100kWh traction battery with V2G.
apparent 7 hours ago [-]
I looked into this and discovered that most EVs don't support it, and the ones that do require even more electrical retrofitting to make it possible.
The people I know who are afraid of outages/EV usage are ones in CA, where an earthquake could knock out power, and they'd need to go a very long distance to get somewhere safe/stable.
stetrain 7 hours ago [-]
If there's a charging station with power within 200 miles then you're fine. That's a pretty big radius.
If power is out in that large of a radius you would also likely have trouble getting gas.
And you don't need the expensive equipment to just run an extension cord from the EV to power critical appliances.
apparent 6 hours ago [-]
If there's a charging station with power within 200 miles it will be overloaded by everyone freeing. There are way more gas stations than charging stations, and they only take a few mins per person, so they would not be nearly as overloaded. Also, there would not be a "run on the bank" mentality since everyone knows gas is pretty available, even in emergencies.
As for powering critical appliances, I'd need a super long heavy duty extension cord to power my fridge, and I don't even know if my vehicle is capable. I'd also have to have my garage door open while it's plugged in, which is not ideal to say the least.
rootusrootus 6 hours ago [-]
In real world examples (places that get hurricanes, for example), the charging stations generally come back online before the gas stations. And an EV is way better in stop-and-go evacuation traffic, too.
> need a super long heavy duty extension cord to power my fridge
Why on earth would you need a heavy duty extension cord for something which pulls so little power?
I otherwise agree with the sentiment, however, it is way more convenient to set up your panel so you can backfeed it to power the whole house (or a nice chunk of it, at least). My Lightning will power all the important bits of my house for the better part of a week, all from the plug in the bed of the truck.
apparent 4 hours ago [-]
I would need a heavy-duty extension cord because I would have to run it 60 feet from my garage all the way into my kitchen. I also have no idea how I would actually plug the fridge in because the power cord is hidden way in the back.
That it would be more convenient in the long run if I could backfeed to my panel, but almost no EVs in the U.S. are actually capable of this. The F-150 Lightning that you have is quite unique in this regard.
stetrain 6 hours ago [-]
I have absolutely experienced the “run on the bank” effect on gas in areas under hurricane warning, as well as weeks afterwards.
6 hours ago [-]
mook 3 hours ago [-]
FWIW, it always requires retrofitting because otherwise you'll kill the guy trying to get your power back. That, or power your whole block…
puszczyk 9 hours ago [-]
Norway proves that cold is not a problem—it’s a matter of incentives
bluGill 7 hours ago [-]
Norway is a small country and most people are not making long distance trips there. Despite being far and far north, they're also close to water and so large parts of the country have a much milder climate than you would expect for their latitude.
Don't get me wrong. The electric cars work just fine in cold weather. As long as your trip isn't too long. I however discovered the hard way last winter about a week after I got my electric car that when the weather is below zero Fahrenheit it gets about half the expected range and I had a trip that was just a little bit over half the expected range - I'm lucky there was a slow charger along that trip, there were no fast chargers anywhere along the route. (An hour charge over lunch got me the 10 extra miles I needed to get home - I didn't eat at my first choice but it worked)
formerly_proven 12 hours ago [-]
Various OEMs have sort of soft-exited the US EV market, but that doesn't mean they're not offering the cars or stop development of them in other markets.
It just means the US market is too unattractive and low-volume for EVs that aren't a Tesla.
Dr4kn 12 hours ago [-]
Today there isn't really a price premium for electric cars. With Gas prices being what they are the demand is naturally increasing.
Even with normal Gas prices EVs are cheaper
asdff 12 hours ago [-]
You are forgetting the elephant in the room: the charger at home and all the implications that brings in between costs and actual possibility of installation at all.
WorldMaker 12 hours ago [-]
You don't need a home charger to enjoy driving an EV. A home charger is a bonus to driving an EV. Do you know anyone who has ever had a "home gas pump"?
Not to mention how many people sleep on Level 1 and Level 2 charging, which are cheap or cheap as free in many homes. (Garages have had electric outlets for a long time. Some have had "dryer plugs" for nearly as long, due to power tools one might own.) Trickle charging doesn't get you to 100% overnight, but no one drives on a 100% full gas tank every morning either.
apparent 11 hours ago [-]
> You don't need a home charger to enjoy driving an EV. A home charger is a bonus to driving an EV.
I know precisely zero people who have EVs and do not charge them at home. The cost differential is enormous and completely changes the economics of cost per mile.
> Trickle charging doesn't get you to 100% overnight, but no one drives on a 100% full gas tank every morning either.
Sure, but a full gas tank gets you further than a full battery. We have friends with a long range Tesla that takes them days to charge on 120. Despite living in a city with many Teslas, and having an expensive home, apparently it would have cost too much for them to upgrade their panel to be able to charge faster. They are retired so can make do (and they have other cars that use gas).
WorldMaker 10 hours ago [-]
> The cost differential is enormous and completely changes the economics of cost per mile.
Which is exactly the point and why it is a bonus. You can't do that with a gas car effectively or cheaply. You won't pay someone to come and install a gas service in your home or apartment with the express reason for fueling your car. That you can with an EV and would get a game changing efficiency and cost reduction is an incredible bonus.
> Sure, but a full gas tank gets you further than a full battery.
That seems to be less of a factor today. Most batteries have hit the same or more range as comparable gas vehicles.
Some EV models already have ~600 mile range which is double their gas counterparts.
> We have friends with a long range Tesla that takes them days to charge on 120.
Sure, but that's to 100%. You can drive a car with less than 100% battery. A 120v charge can add as much as 40-60 miles range overnight. That's an average person's regular commute. The car might "never" be at 100% if the 120v charge is all it ever gets, but for some people they might never need a fast charge in an average week or even month.
asdff 5 hours ago [-]
We are trusting range figures now?
apparent 7 hours ago [-]
> Most batteries have hit the same or more range as comparable gas vehicles.
Really? Which ones? I'm not aware of any vehicles where the ICE version has less range than the EV version.
And in general, people who are on the fence about an EV in the first place are not going to be buying the extra-expensive long-range models.
addaon 10 hours ago [-]
> I know precisely zero people who have EVs and do not charge them at home. The cost differential is enormous and completely changes the economics of cost per mile.
I know multiple people who have EVs and don't have a home charger, so do 90%+ of their charging at work. You're there 8+ hours a day anyway, and many workplaces provide free charging, so it ends up even cheaper than charging at home.
0x457 5 hours ago [-]
My 35 floors building has exactly 2 chargers. Both are FIFO, max 5 hours or you start parking and both are slow af and pay for charge. Charging M3 on one of those is probably a whole day activity and would cost you probably more than if you get a diesel generator running to power charger.
So I might not know those people, but know of at least 10 teslas that aren't charging at home every day, because usually those spots are taken by polestars.
apparent 7 hours ago [-]
If you have a free work charger, that's almost as good as having charging at home. Most people do not have this, and even if you do then you would be SOL if you switch jobs.
Rebelgecko 7 hours ago [-]
I have an EV and can't charge at home (condo where cost to add a charger would be obscene). In 3 years there's been maybe 5 times where it's been a mild inconvenience. Which isn't nothing but a few hours of hassle is a pretty good price to pay for the thousands of dollars I've saved on fuel.
asdff 11 hours ago [-]
>Do you know anyone who has ever had a "home gas pump"?'
You know that's a bad faith argument. Facts are, EVs have friction and that holds back a lot of adoption, and pretending it isn't there isn't going to make it go away.
WorldMaker 11 hours ago [-]
It's not a bad faith argument, it is comparing like for like. (Saying that it isn't like for like seems to me to be the more bad faith argument in 2026.) If I have a gas car with 300 miles of range I go about 297 miles safely between fill ups. If I have an EV car with 300 miles of range I can go about 297 miles safely between charges. Those are the same characteristics.
The part that isn't like for like sure is that there is an increased friction that even a "fast charger" can take a magnitude more time than a gas pump. But fast chargers are much safer and can be parallel tasked (running other errands while a charge happens) whereas gas is an explosive and requires diligent observation while refueling (despite how many people seem oblivious to all the warnings not to leave a refueling car unobserved and a long history of explosion statistics).
In my experience, fast charging time and lack of home charging ability (and under-estimation of Level 1/2 charging utility) feel like red herrings rather than actual issues. These things get talked about a lot, but the real world experience of them isn't the friction people believe it is. The biggest issues seem to be far more sociopolitical than technical to me. People have invested too much of their identities in gas. Entire political parties seem devoted to propping up gas sales for as long as possible.
asdff 11 hours ago [-]
It is definitely a bad faith argument. That is no friction point really that anyone considers a friction point. The charger situation though is real friction. Take yourself out of your own shoes. I will give you anecdata. I have a friend who bought a tesla with no way to charge it in their apartment. It just seems like such a pain in the ass. So many times they are on like 18% charge and wondering if the car is going to actually make it home. Or they will be about to go somewhere and realize the car isn't going to be charged enough so they call an uber. It is unreliable transport without having a home charger. A new chore you have to remember to do. A bit more mental load making that extra calculation every time you want to leave. Having to actually consider where there might be chargers that you can use and if you'd be able to reach them on your present charge.
WorldMaker 11 hours ago [-]
Take all of that anecdata and replace a gas car and it is the exact same with the same mental load: I've been on 18% fuel tank and wondering if my car will actually make it home or stall out on the road. I've been about to go somewhere and realized my car isn't fueled and and called a taxi or a Lyft as faster than the detour to refuel my car.
"It's an unreliable transport without having a gas pump at home." That just sounds silly. Funnily enough that was exactly one of the early complaints of gas cars when electric cars were preferred in the very early days of cars. It was a complaint when gas pumps were rare and hard to find, or didn't exist at all yet and you were pulling gas canisters from the back of a pharmacy.
It's a more reliable transport than a gas car because I can charge at home. (I can't do that at all with gas.) It's a more reliable transport than a gas car because in a pinch I can find an outlet on the outside of my hotel and trickle charge enough to get me to the next charger. (When was the last time a hotel had canisters of gas just in case?) It's a more reliable transport than a gas car because I can find RV plugs in national parks and state parks and campgrounds far away from chargers and gas stations. (You ever see what you might get charged for a tow from a remote national park, even if that tow is just dropping off a canister of gas?)
The impression of the charger situation being more inconvenient than gas stations is already flipping and has room to flip a lot more, possibly surprisingly quickly, as gas prices rise and low margin gas pumps go out of business.
apparent 10 hours ago [-]
> I've been on 18% fuel tank and wondering if my car will actually make it home or stall out on the road. I've been about to go somewhere and realized my car isn't fueled and and called a taxi or a Lyft as faster than the detour to refuel my car.
Ridiculous, since there are gas stations all over and you can get 50 miles of range in 30 seconds, or 350 miles of range in 120 seconds. Even the fastest EVs (which are expensive and therefore not likely purchases for people who are on the fence about EVs in general) do not even come close.
The fastest are maybe 18 minutes from 10-80%, but most are 30-45 minutes (and that's only for 70% of the total range of the vehicle, whereas an ICE can be fully tanked up in 2 minutes.
WorldMaker 10 hours ago [-]
> since there are gas stations all over
That's the assumption, though. There aren't. There is an illusion of it, sure. I gave that anecdata from personal experience. It isn't "ridiculous", it's called having lived (and learned to drive) in rural Ohio.
apparent 7 hours ago [-]
Well, I've lived for several decades in several different states/regions, and in my experience, gas stations are all over. They even have signs on the highway when there's no gas for x miles ahead.
While there may be electricity everywhere, there certainly are not high-speed chargers in places where gas is even close to scarce.
Can you install it in your garage? Sure, if you've got the panel for it. But that's beside the point when we're talking about refueling on trips. That is, and will be for the foreseeable future, faster in an ICE. That's why we have PHEVs. Maintenance may be higher than an EV, but they're much better on road trips.
asdff 10 hours ago [-]
If the region is so remote that gas station access is really that poor, ev charger access is probably entirely nonexistent.
WorldMaker 10 hours ago [-]
But electricity is not nonexistent. It's easier to run an EV in rural Ohio than a gas car because you can install a real nice charger in that huge garage you have or outside your big barn next to your gravel lot, whatever, you've got space and a grid connection. That's not currently the average mentality, but that returns us to the sociopolitics of rural Ohio and EV adoption in the US in general more than any of the technicalities.
asdff 5 hours ago [-]
So just to be clear, we've moved to goalposts from acknowledging there is friction for a lot of people's EV situation to imagining some rural ohioan with a big garage installing their own level 2 charger and using that as justification to gaslight my own garage-less living experiences as a nonexistent friction point towards EV ownership.
rootusrootus 6 hours ago [-]
> a "fast charger" can take a magnitude more time than a gas pump
I think that's overstating it a bit. A fast charging stop is 20 minutes (often less) whereas a typical gas stop is 15 minutes according to AAA. Where the gas option has a momentary advantage is that modern gas stations are often attached to convenience stores, and this is not often the case with fast chargers yet.
Brendinooo 6 hours ago [-]
>it is comparing like for like.
Is it? Can I get an electric car recharged at a gas station in the same time it takes me to fill up a gas tank?
If yes, cool. If not, then the idea is that I wouldn't want to sit in a parking lot; I'd want to charge at home instead. And if I can't reliably charge at home instead...
rootusrootus 6 hours ago [-]
Pretty close. ~15 minutes for gas [0], ~20 minutes for electric. People often claim ~5 minutes for gas, but in reality most people stop for ~15 minutes for refueling. According to AAA at least, who I generally trust more than anecdotes on the Internet.
Brendinooo 6 hours ago [-]
15 minutes?!?
I'd be surprised if I even hit five minutes.
Do you have a source on that AAA thing?
apparent 4 hours ago [-]
I'm certain I've never spent 5 minutes putting gas into any vehicle I've ever owned. The AAA reference may be how long it takes from exiting the freeway to re-entering the freeway for a gas fill-up, because sometimes it takes a little while to get to the station you want and complete the whole transaction.
It could also be from old data from back in the day when you had to go in and pay with cash or credit at the register. Now that most places have credit card terminals or Apple Pay at the pump, it takes about 45 seconds from when I pull up to when I'm putting gas in my vehicle.
asdff 5 hours ago [-]
So are you going to trust dubious pop statistics data from a nonscientific agency and let that gaslight you into imagining you take on average 15 minutes at the pump? Have you ever pumped gas before?
Gibbon1 10 hours ago [-]
I found some data from an auto insurance association.
In US urban areas the average car is only driven 6000 miles a year. That's 115 miles a week. Someone in an urban city would only need to charge every two weeks. Friend has a Chevy Bolt in SF he parks on the street. He says it's not a problem.
I also repeat myself but I've measured how long it take to gas up a car on road trips. It's usually around 10-15 minutes. Oh sure actually filling the car is quick. But you have to drive to the gas station, fill the car, drive away from the gas station.
asdff 10 hours ago [-]
>But you have to drive to the gas station, fill the car, drive away from the gas station.
Costs you also pay driving to the EV charging station. 10-15 mins really? Maybe if you are taking a poop or buying a sandwich. Usually on road trips gas stations are immediately off the freeway or at major crossroads of state or county roads. You aren't really detouring to get to them.
kgermino 12 hours ago [-]
Ya that’s the big issues with EVs. It’s overblown in a lot of ways - it is, ultimately, just getting electricity where you park your car - but power at your overnight parking spot is a massive component of happy EV ownership and we’ve done almost nothing to help or even encourage that for apartment dwellers
magicalhippo 10 hours ago [-]
Here in Norway condominiums and similar got incentives to install chargers at the shared parking areas.
Harder downtown where there's only street parking, some feaction has been converted to street charging spots by the municipality, but nit that many and pricing sucjs since you have to pay parking fee in addition to charging fee which is considerably higher than proper home charging would be.
From my coworker who had a BEV downtown, it cost about as much to charge per mile as gas, do became a wash.
For me that can charge at home it's a no-brainer, I pay like 15% per mile with pre-Hormuz gas prices, less than 10% per mile now.
lern_too_spel 11 hours ago [-]
You just plug it into the wall like a computer. I don't know why you think you need to install anything.
apparent 7 hours ago [-]
Some people have to park on the street and therefore do not have anywhere to plug in anything. Also, some people park in apartment buildings where there are no outlets near many of the spots.
Sohcahtoa82 8 hours ago [-]
If you only need level 1 charging, or you already have a 240v outlet in your garage, sure.
Otherwise, you're gonna need an electrician to put a 240v outlet or dedicated EV charger.
rootusrootus 6 hours ago [-]
> If you only need level 1 charging
To be fair, this is most people. A level 1 charging setup is generally good for about 5 miles per hour, most cars parked at least 10 hours overnight, and the average commute just under 15 miles each way.
Level 2 is handy, for sure, but a whole lot of people could absolutely get by with a bog standard 120V socket.
rootusrootus 6 hours ago [-]
Compared to the cost of buying the car, or hell, the cost a few months of gasoline, installing a charger at home is a nothingburger. A one-time investment that immediately pays dividends.
apparent 4 hours ago [-]
It might cost $300 to $600 to put in a charger at home if all of the wiring is ready to go. That's small compared to the cost of buying a new car, but it's certainly not nothing compared to a few months of gas.
jsbisviewtiful 12 hours ago [-]
> the rest of the market wasn't interested enough to pay the price premium.
Would love a Toyota EV but usually for significantly less I can get a Toyota hybrid with more space. Both my partner's and my vehicles are Toyota hybrid crossovers but we looked for an EV first and realized we simply couldn't justify the extreme price difference for how little our cars are driven. Really hoping when our time for a new vehicle comes we can trade in both for one reasonably priced EV crossover - so hopefully the rest of the planet can continue pushing the EV market forward while the US lags way behind.
apparent 10 hours ago [-]
Yeah Toyota's PHEVs are quite nice, but the price premium is too much. It basically makes no sense unless you can charge for free at work, and even then you'd have to drive 50,000 miles before it pays off. If you're like most of us and you pay for electricity at home, the inflection point is even further out. How many people even keep cars for that long anymore?
gonzalohm 12 hours ago [-]
I think the problem is not that people don't want electric cars. The problem is that people don't have a place to plug the car at home.
stetrain 12 hours ago [-]
I think the US is still pretty far from saturating the potential market of garage-owning car buyers with EVs, but that is a major hurdle for people who rent or street park and might be interested in saving gas money.
TedDoesntTalk 12 hours ago [-]
My electric panel is full. If I want to add an EV charger to my garage, I first have to replace the electric panel with a larger one. That’s minimum $5000 before I even get to the EV charger.
stetrain 12 hours ago [-]
There are potentially options that could work for you, including:
1) Just charge from an existing 120V outlet. If you average under 50 miles of driving per day this might work just fine.
2) Reshuffle existing circuits to get even a 20A 240V circuit for charging. This provides more than double the charging you can get from a 15A 120V outlet and may be possible by combining some existing circuits with tandem breakers. A lot of electricians will just quote you on going straight to a 50A or 60A circuit, but most chargers are configurable to lower levels and it can save you a lot of money to stick to a smaller circuit.
3) Share a circuit with a dryer using a device that automatically switches power off to the car while the dryer is running, there are a few brands of these.
4) Get an EV charger that supports load management, using a current sensor on your main breaker. These can dynamically adjust how much current the car draws to avoid exceeding the max current of your panel.
5) Electric meter socket adapter, these connect between your utility's electric meter and its socket and provides an EV charging port that doesn't go through your household panel at all.
rootusrootus 6 hours ago [-]
> 5) Electric meter socket adapter, these connect between your utility's electric meter and its socket and provides an EV charging port that doesn't go through your household panel at all.
And the newest, best ones also provide a generator inlet so you can power the house off your EV. Assuming it has the ability, of course, not all do.
someonebaggy 12 hours ago [-]
Can't you charge it from a wall outlet but slower (tier 1 charging)? If you have a dryer in your garage you can get a charger that plugs into that, taking turns with your dryer.
Technology Connections did a video essay on this and concluded that for most people, you get plenty of range for everyday use just by leaving it plugged into a normal socket overnight, and just occasionally using a supercharger when you're doing long trips. Of course if your commute is particularly long maybe this doesn't apply to you.
Range anxiety is definitely a real concern about switching to EV but apparently most people don't find it that bad once they actually get one. Besides, there won't be any gas soon anyway.
xur17 12 hours ago [-]
Depending on how much you drive per week, a 120V charger might be viable. My new house has the same problem (I'd have to upgrade the electric panel for my car due to its age), but I've been using the normal 120V charger to charge it, and haven't yet run into a case where I couldn't charge it enough.
aeyes 12 hours ago [-]
You don't need an EV charger. I charge my car from a normal wall socket over night, limited to 12A. That gives me 60 miles of range over night.
rootusrootus 6 hours ago [-]
> My electric panel is full.
You might ask an electrician to take a look. With modern quads, it takes real commitment to jam a panel to the point where it has no more capacity.
quickthrowman 9 hours ago [-]
Assuming you have a 200A service, you don’t need to replace your panel. You can remove two single pole breakers or one two pole breaker, install a 100A two pole breaker in the empty space, buy some 3/#1 copper SER cable (two hots and one neutral for 240/120V) and use it to feed a $125 100A load center without a main breaker.
You need to use #1 copper for a 100A subpanel, you can use 3/#2 aluminum cable for a 100A service entrance but there’s an exception that allows using wire rated at 83% of its ampacity for a service entrance conductor which does not apply for subpanels.
Refeed the two removed breakers out of the load center and add a 60A two pole breaker to feed the EV charger, if it’s a cord and plug charger that you plug into a NEMA 14-50R you’ll need a GFCI breaker, if it’s hardwired you don’t need a GFCI breaker.
The material can be purchased for less than $500 for this project, if you have to hire out the labor it’ll be considerably more expensive, I’d estimate one day for an electrician or around $1200-1800 depending on where you live.
klaff 11 hours ago [-]
I'm not sure why you got downvoted as I think you are mostly correct.
We've had an EV for 1.5 years and love it. In fact any time I'm in a gas-powered car it feels downright primitive with all the noises and smells and sluggish performance. The range anxiety we experienced at first has completely given way to it being awesome that I never have to stop at gas stations and don't have to waste time/money on oil changes.
But if we couldn't charge at home it would likely be more expensive to fuel than a gas car instead of being much cheaper (but this depends on your local electricity and gas prices).
However, I do think there is still a big pool in the US who haven't even ridden in one to know what they are missing. Americans have never let poor gas mileage stop them from buying a car (or truck) that is bigger or faster or somehow "better" than the economical choice.
dyauspitr 12 hours ago [-]
I don’t know about the others but Ford isn’t axing it’s EVs, it’s reworking them to make them cheaper.
apparent 10 hours ago [-]
It axed the F150 Lightning. They might have later announced that they're going to bring it back as an EREV (pretty much PHEV), but that seemed like a separate decision. If it were the same decision, they would have announced it at the time of the cancellation announcement, to make it seem more like a pivot.
rjsw 7 hours ago [-]
The rest of the world doesn't drive F-series trucks.
I'm thinking of getting a Ford EV as my next car, prefer the features and looks to the equivalent Stellantis models.
bluGill 7 hours ago [-]
The US does though. The f series is a very practical vehicle for a lot of people since it can do so much. It is a compromise but the negatives are not that great.
apparent 6 hours ago [-]
IIRC the F-150 is the most popular vehicle by sales in the US.
rootusrootus 6 hours ago [-]
That is true, but only because Chevy Silverado and GMC Sierra are counted separately despite being badge engineered twins.
rootusrootus 6 hours ago [-]
The Lightning ended early because the aluminum plant fires were cutting Ford's ability to produce enough F150s of any kind. They make more money on the ICE trucks than the EVs, so the Lightning got the axe first.
> EREV (pretty much PHEV)
There is not much relationship between an EREV and a PHEV. An EREV is way, way closer to a BEV than it is to a hybrid. And I'll eat my hat if Ford actually releases an F150 EREV. That announcement was to mollify angry customers who thought Ford should not have killed the most popular EV truck on the market.
Frankly I'll be surprised if anyone seriously goes for EREVs. They make very little sense, which is why (AFAIK) it's only seen production once or twice in small numbers.
apparent 4 hours ago [-]
IMO, EREVs and PHEVs are actually quite similar. My understanding is that the gasoline engine in an EREV never drives the wheels, whereas in a PHEV, it can sometimes drive the wheels, even when the battery has power. In my PHEV, this only happens at highway speeds and only if I've hit the throttle hard. Otherwise, the vehicle is basically an EREV. Other PHEVs are touchy with the throttle or maximum speed on electric and so end up kicking on the gas engine to drive the wheels much more often.
I actually have a different expectation regarding the popularity of EREVs. I think that for a certain segment, they'll be quite popular because they give the best of both worlds if the maintenance doesn't end up being too much more. They can end up being preferable for people who want to take long road trips without having to worry about charging.
0x457 5 hours ago [-]
EREV vs PHEV, in the US, is separated by "do you get more range on battery or gas". That's why US version of i3 got electornically limited gas tank to qualify to be called EREV.
dyauspitr 8 hours ago [-]
That’s actually old news they just announced the Ford Fathom, which is all electric and supposedly significantly cheaper than even the base model lightning.
apparent 7 hours ago [-]
Well, when they announced the Ford 150 Lightning, it was supposedly going to be quite inexpensive as well. Of course, by the time it actually came out, it was 2x or 3x the price that they had originally announced.
rootusrootus 6 hours ago [-]
> it was 2x or 3x the price that they had originally announced.
That's hyperbole. They announced at 40K for the base model. Briefly sold it for that to people with early reservations, then jacked up the base price to like 48K. And a year later they kept on raising it, peaking, as I recall, at just under 60K. It was never 2x or 3x unless you are counting the worst examples of the dealer mark-up gouging. But that's not a problem Ford could do much to solve. And by 2024 they were selling for quite reasonable prices -- I got my extended range Flash for 50K out the door, which was a good bit less than the hybrid I had been shopping for.
There are routinely mark-ups on popular vehicles, and I bet there will be a period of time when this is true for the Fathom as well. Early adopters are willing to pay extra, so the market is there to take advantage of that.
apparent 4 hours ago [-]
I wasn't referring to the price hikes on the base model, which increased the price by 50%, to $60k. I was referring to the fact that, at first, they were fulfilling the high-end trims, which were even much more expensive than that. I know some people get a good deal on it, but it was pretty illusory to say they were going to sell for under $40k.
formerly_proven 12 hours ago [-]
Historically most of these "Whether it’s a battery EV, plug-in hybrid, hybrid, or internal combustion engine vehicle―whatever the power source" platforms have been utter ICE-first EV-distant-fourth-priority shit shows. Most of the exceptions are rather expensive.
apparent 10 hours ago [-]
True, and it's especially interesting since Toyota I think offers some vehicles only as hybrids/PHEVs. For example, the Camry and RAV4 fall into this category, I think. It's deceptive because it makes it look like the RAV4 PHEV isn't that much more than the base model. But since the base model is already more expensive than an ICE would have been because it's a hybrid, this isn't the true differential between ICE and PHEV.
BuffaloEric33 11 hours ago [-]
In general, they've been pretty uninspired. That said, the Hyundai Kona/Kia Niro cousins were pretty much just "replace the engine with a motor and bolt the battery to the bottom" and those were perfectly reasonable cars for the vast majority of actual needs.
egl2020 8 hours ago [-]
The lesson I take away from Tesla is going for the extremum: if you're going to be BEV, don't compromise. Toyota is ignoring that with a "platform that supports all powertrains, including pure electric".
andriy_koval 7 hours ago [-]
Tesla doesnt have offering in 30k market, which is likely different story, design and component sharing is important to cut cost. Also, Teslas are premium segment, thus can afford to go extreme.
renjimen 7 hours ago [-]
You can buy the Model 3 for $37k, which is not far off $30k, and definitely not in the premium segment.
andriy_koval 6 hours ago [-]
I think that non-premium 37k model is available for few months only? I can argue that its subproduct of premium segment infra/design.
NewJazz 7 hours ago [-]
Yeah the M3 is the low-medium budget EV to beat (in US market). A few are cheaper (equinox, bolt, leaf), but most are at that price or higher.
pornel 12 hours ago [-]
Toyota wants to show nobody wants EVs by making EVs nobody wants.
Brendinooo 6 hours ago [-]
I'd take a hard look at an electric Corolla if it's not much more expensive than the gas version
rootusrootus 6 hours ago [-]
Me too. Not for me, but for my kids. The idea of a dead nuts reliable Toyota EV is appealing. They're not going to blow your socks off with performance or tech, but combining Toyota manufacturing prowess with the inherent superior reliability of EVs could make for one hell of a long term ownership experience.
tclancy 5 hours ago [-]
Am I the only one who thinks those look damned cool? If they provided some kind of stupid engine option to definitively hoon the thing, I’d be all over it.
tclancy 5 hours ago [-]
To be clear, exterior design only. The interior looks stupid. The seats look deadly to me at 50 with back problems.
WokeUp420 1 days ago [-]
The hybrid already gets 55mpg and the batteries are dirt cheap.
mcone 13 hours ago [-]
Our 2026 hybrid gets 64mpg in Albuquerque. The last time I did the EROI calculation it beat everything by a long shot.
crimsontech 21 hours ago [-]
Its actually cheaper (for me in the UK) to run a corolla hybrid than an EV as I don't have the ability to charge at home.
scottyah 13 hours ago [-]
I really did think Toyota would have a nice market if they stuck to hybrids.
13 hours ago [-]
RajuChacha108 12 hours ago [-]
Corolla is sort of highly underrated engineering marvel.
throwitaway222 13 hours ago [-]
Not sure how you got one that gets 55mpg, mine gets 44 (47 was on the sticker). But in CA this still beats 100% EV.
klaff 11 hours ago [-]
You really do have to do the math using your local costs. I'm in a place with slightly cheaper gas but much cheaper electricity than California. Combined with cheap night time electricity I'm paying under $0.03 per mile for a large EV. I would need 150 mpg vehicle (assuming $4.50 gas) to beat that. However I'm cheating a bit - I'm on a plan which raises my day time electric costs a small amount in exchange for half-price at night, so they're getting some of that back, and I should amortize charger and electrician work ($1600 for me).
justin66 7 hours ago [-]
Yeesh. I get 44 mpg in a much heavier Toyota hybrid. But it probably depends on what percentage of your driving is in the city, vs highway.
dyauspitr 12 hours ago [-]
55mpg is nothing. I get 100+ mpg equivalent on my massive F-150 lightning and if you include cost in the comparison it’s probably a couple of multipliers more than that.
NewJazz 12 hours ago [-]
And that's just operating cost. PHEVs have a higher maintenance cost and worse reliability than pure EVs, typically. Certainly higher complexity and more parts.
rootusrootus 6 hours ago [-]
On top of that, my Lightning was less expensive than the gas equivalent. I've been winning since day one. If I had to sell it today (that would make me so sad), the depreciation would be the lowest of any car I've ever owned.
monk_grilla 6 hours ago [-]
What about this is a Corolla? It looks like something from Cyberpunk 2077.
alexandermorgan 12 hours ago [-]
Judging from the prototype Toyota is clearly not serious about actually producing this ev version.
Naru41 6 hours ago [-]
That's right. Nobody wants EVs, and even if there is a niche demand, Chinese companies are dumping them at a national level. (look at the Europe plight)
They'll pretend to sell EVs to keep their options open, but they won't actually sell any.
rootusrootus 5 hours ago [-]
> Nobody wants EVs
Tongue-in-cheek, or a persistent case of cope?
nunez 5 hours ago [-]
I'm excited about this because this means that I'll easily be able to rent an electric car again from the big rental companies that I can rely on being everywhere. It's currently a massive PITA to do this since they've cut EV inventory across the board so renting an EV car is always a gamble.
inatreecrown2 5 hours ago [-]
They have waited this long because Japan currently doesn't have the electricity to support a shift to a majority EV situation.
nunez 5 hours ago [-]
Explains the whole "pfft BEV sucks HEV rules" phase they were in for a while.
manyatoms 12 hours ago [-]
Why couldn't it just look like a Corolla
giordetino 2 hours ago [-]
An electric Corolla makes sense to me. The big question is the price. If it ends up costing much more than the hybrid, it’s going to be a harder sell. Curious what the price gap will be.
genxy 12 hours ago [-]
If they would bring a barebones electric station wagon to the US that would be heavenly.
bluGill 7 hours ago [-]
I wish anyone would. Sadly it seems you me and one other person I know are the sole market for station wagons in the modern world and so no one will.
hinkley 4 hours ago [-]
Those wheels are so far to the corner, I can’t see how the car drives after even a minor front corner hit.
harlan_pdx 4 hours ago [-]
About time! The Corolla is the perfect mass-market platform for an EV, glad they're finally going all in.
klufas 4 hours ago [-]
What do you mean, the Corolla is a gas powered platform.
Molitor5901 11 hours ago [-]
I'm holding on to my gas vehicle as long as I can because I really don't like the hybrid sad spaceship noise. I guess I could get it and disable the speaker but then that might void the warranty. The mechanic I go to tells me I can absolutely disable it and they will do it for me but they caution that it will void a warranty. I will continue to drive my old car until it falls apart.
rootusrootus 6 hours ago [-]
> that might void the warranty
That would be explicitly illegal, it will definitely not void your warranty. It could hypothetically increase your liability if you are involved in an accident where you run over a pedestrian who argues that you were silent when you should have been making noise, but I am not sure this has ever been litigated.
11 hours ago [-]
gwbas1c 11 hours ago [-]
The car is too low to the ground.
One of the things that really frustrated me about my Tesla Model 3 was how low it was. I would "look up" at Ford Fusions and other sedans on the road.
In contrast, my Model Y isn't an SUV. It's the height (and ground clearance) of what we used to call sedans, and really feels like a sedan instead of an SUV.
rootusrootus 6 hours ago [-]
That's interesting, because a Model 3, BMW 3 series, Honda Accord, and Toyota Camry are all within like 10mm of each other in height, and very similar ground clearance as well (the lowest ground clearance is the Accord). The Model Y is like 7 inches taller, very much in the range of a typical comparable CUV.
Alien1Being 7 hours ago [-]
Too late.
Us rusted on Toyota customers are moving to Chinese EVs
My family's last 6 cars were Toyota hybrids.
But as a corporation, Toyota is notoriously anti-electric.
Tomorrow I am test driving a Xpeng G6, a Zeek X and a BYD Atto 3.
No more anti-electric Toyotas for me.
( And of course no cars from fascist countries like the USA, that goes without saying )
erxam 5 hours ago [-]
Can't wait for the day where Toyota is called "the BYD of ICE", as opposed to how it is now.
dzonga 13 hours ago [-]
why don't Japanese auto-makers embrace the super+ hybrid that was embraced by Chinese auto makers. having electric motors and a small engine to constantly charge / drive the motors.
Japanese auto makers are already good at hybrid power trains, small engines.
surely extended range vehicles - 1000km+/700mi+ shouldn't be limited to Chinese brands only.
stetrain 12 hours ago [-]
Part of that is that we are reaching the point where a plug-in hybrid is actually more expensive to produce than an EV.
Go to Toyota's website today and you'll see that a Rav4 Plug-in Hybrid is more expensive than the bZ which is the equivalent full EV.
Going to an EREV layout (a series plug-in hybrid where the gas engine cannot drive the wheels mechanically) doesn't really save any costs directly, but allows sharing the platform between EV and EREV models.
rootusrootus 5 hours ago [-]
An EREV is basically the worst of almost all worlds. It's a BEV with a motor tacked on. It ends up with a battery not a lot smaller than a pure BEV, so no real reduction in the cost of an expensive component, plus an engine and generator along with associated maintenance headaches. Not to mention the almost certain loss of cargo capacity.
I can't see myself ever wanting a Lightning EREV, for example, because of this exact issue. If I needed to tow, that would be the sole situation where it might hold enough of an advantage to matter. Aside from that, it will have (most likely) about 75% of the battery the BEV Lightning has, and it will lose the frunk, which is one of my favorite features. Plus, unlike my Lightning with it's 200K mile first required maintenance work, the EREV will probably have to be serviced every 10-20K miles. Ugh.
torton 2 hours ago [-]
The Chevrolet Volt is a representative EREV. Its battery is 1/3 the size of a Model 3's -- that's a lot smaller than a pure BEV. 50 mile electric range, 45 mpg on gas. These cars are now 10 years old (approaching 15 for the first generation), and out of the 3 known common issues for Gen 2 only one has anything to do with the gasoline engine.
lambenttelos 12 hours ago [-]
I think they have, though not as much as they should have.
I have a Sienna minivan that is hybrid and gets 36 MPG which is at least 10MPG more than everyone else using a beefed up version of the drivetrain the Prius created. (I can go 550-600 miles on a tank)
I also got RAV4 Prime which is a plugin electric that uses the same drivetrain tech and can go full electric, hybrid, or full power with both for over 300hp which is fun.
They achieve the best efficiency by using an Atkinson cycle engine which is more efficient but less powerful on the Sienna and Prius. What has confused me more is that things like the Grand Highlander still have a traditional cycle engine in their hybrid setup so you don't get the maximum advantage.
electroweak 12 hours ago [-]
Range extender motors should have been easy to rent and much cheaper for long trips than a full car rental.
It would be very interesting to me to have a small sedan BEV with a rear charging port and an optional flat trailer with a large battery and room for luggage/furniture. The battery would be plugged into that car while driving. I'd want the trailer rentable from the dealer for occasional long trips. BEVs seem to have powerful motors, there must be something else with the economics why this isn't a thing.
bluGill 7 hours ago [-]
Everyone wants to rent that trailer at the same time. That is Christmas break, spring break, and summer vacations. Most of the year it is going to sit unused and so you're going to have to buy your own trailer if you want one not rented because they're just not the economics of it. You'll be paying for it either way because you're going to be the only user.
RVs are where I would think this would make the most sense. People with a travel trailer already have a heavy trailer and they want a lot of battery to get it anyway. beef up the axle a little you can put a thousand pounds of battery on you get more range when you're towing and if there's any left over your RV can run on battery power. It's also very common for them to plug in once they get where they're going and so they can charge on 220 volt power that's already at the RV park and be charged and charge your car while you're at it overnight.
m463 7 hours ago [-]
I noticed that they are selling RV trailers that help haul themselves, and now electric trailers for semis.
Didn't Toyota bet heavily on hybrid, only to realise that no one really wants them. You have to have a specific daily drive for them to make much sense. You're carrying two engines and to fuel/power sources, so mileage is terrible on gas and battery.
stetrain 12 hours ago [-]
Hybrids make a lot of sense, they just have a lot of the same costs as building EVs and most buyers in the US weren't willing to pay an extra $5k to increase gas mileage by 15%.
Toyota is currently seeing record sales of their hybrid models and has made multiple models hybrid-only as costs have fallen.
Plug-in hybrids with larger battery packs are a harder market fit. They cost more because of the larger battery (often more than full EV equivalents) and are not saving you any extra money unless you can plug it in daily. If you have that extra money to spend and a place to plug an, an EV will probably work fine for you and save you more money over time.
ramesh31 12 hours ago [-]
>"Hybrids make a lot of sense, they just have a lot of the same costs as building EVs and most buyers in the US weren't willing to pay an extra $5k to increase gas mileage by 15%"
It's more-so the "I don't want that over-complicated crap" mentality, which is hilariously out of date. The first-gen Prius ended up being the single most reliable car ever made by almost any metric you can name.
stetrain 11 hours ago [-]
That's a factor, but as you say many hybrids are actually very reliable and actually simplify many parts of the drivetrain over a conventional ICE.
Cost is a huge factor, and now that hybrids are a small cost increase, or even the default option on some models, sales have increased substantially. Basically half the cars that Toyota sells are hybrid or EV at this point.
Sohcahtoa82 7 hours ago [-]
> The first-gen Prius ...
...was also incredibly slow.
A pitiful 70 horsepower motor assisted by a 44 horsepower motor that combined to an anemic 104 horsepower [0] on a car that weighed ~2,800 lbs.
I had to borrow my in-laws' car once, which is a first gen Prius, and I found the extremely sluggish performance to be outright frustrating. I felt like I had to floor the accelerator to reach highway speeds in any reasonable amount of time.
[0] Not a typo. The numbers don't add to 114 because they can't both deliver peak power at the same time.
enragedcacti 11 hours ago [-]
"only to realise that no one really wants them" - 1 of every 6 new cars sold in the US are hybrids
"You have to have a specific daily drive for them to make much sense" - You'd have to have an extremely specific commute for an ICE car to potentially beat a hybrid (flat highway driving with zero traffic). Even then it's doubtful as hybrid engines can be designed to optimize more for efficiency since the electric torque can augment to make performance acceptable. Try to find an ICE car that gets better EPA ratings than equivalent hybrids.
"You're carrying two engines and to fuel/power sources, so mileage is terrible on gas and battery." - The corolla hybrid LE weighs 100lbs less than the ICE LE, in part because hybrid transmissions are quite simple in comparison to a manual/automatic required in an ICE car. In either case, hybrids have a huge advantage in the types of driving where weight matters (stop-and-go/hills) because they can reclaim that energy rather than losing it as heat.
torton 2 hours ago [-]
The current generation Prius gets 57 mpg. The most efficient non-hybrid one can buy today is in the mid-40s.
formerly_proven 11 hours ago [-]
Most hybrids Toyota sells have a ~1 kWh battery which cannot be charged externally.
gruez 12 hours ago [-]
>why don't Japanese auto-makers embrace the super+ hybrid that was embraced by Chinese auto makers
How is that different than plug-in hybrids that toyota already have?
hamdingers 12 hours ago [-]
In a pure series hybrid a gas engine acts a generator which charges a battery, which drives an electric motor, which provides power to the wheels.
In parallel hybrids, both the gas motor and the electric motor provide traction, sometimes simultaneously.
Parallel is more efficient if you're depending on gas often, as every conversion has losses. Toyota mostly sells hybrids you can't plug in, and the ones you can plug in are variants of the ones you can't, so they all share the same drivetrain.
john01dav 12 hours ago [-]
As far as I know, such plug-in hybrids directly drive the car forward via the internal combustion engine, which is more efficient than using a (possibly smaller and simpler) engine to charge a battery which then moves the car via electric motors, which is what I understand the person that you're replying to to be describing, though I am not familiar with the specific Chinese cars in question, since those are not options available to me due to living in the United States.
Chevy had that with the Volt and while it has its fans, it wasn’t exactly a hit.
hnav 12 hours ago [-]
The volt was more like a Prius Plugin++. It still has a planetary gearset through which the engine would drive the wheels.
alphabeta3r56 13 hours ago [-]
They have. See toyota hyryder
Apocryphon 13 hours ago [-]
Yeah, what happened after the Toyota Prius?
imglorp 6 hours ago [-]
> Toyota’s current chairman and former CEO, Akio Toyoda, warned [...] in July that the company is being forced to adapt, or “it cannot survive,”.
THIS is why I hate legacy auto companies. They don't want to delight customers. They must be dragged and forced to offer the bare minimum.
I have a Hyundai EV and it's the best vehicle I've ever driven. Japan and Detroit (et al) can suck it.
ak6te 5 hours ago [-]
What's your definition of "legacy auto company"? Wikipedia tells me Hyundai was founded in 1967.
__natty__ 13 hours ago [-]
> The Japanese automaker is planning a drastic overhaul, including a sleek new design, high-tech interior, and updated platform.
Oh please no! I loved the old boring interiors with analog components
cush 5 hours ago [-]
I look forward to it looking absolutely nothing like these concepts
greenowl 8 hours ago [-]
No thanks, Toyota. We'll keep running our 20 year old Corolla (9th generation - if you know, you know)
octoberfranklin 12 hours ago [-]
I want an electric Supra.
Nobody's making good lightweight superfast electric sportscars except for Kia (EV6 GT, 600hp). That car is amazing but the interior is super-cheap and Kia failed to "do the Acura thing" that made the NSX respectable (it isn't a "Honda NSX").
The Porsche Taycan is an absolute boat, an old man's car, the thing weighs a ton. Handling is terrible, center of mass is way above the axles. BMW electrics are the same. Mercedes doesn't even have an electric performance car.
The German car companies are really just "mailing it in" when it comes to electic sportscars; they refuse to actually try to build a good one.
Tesla Model S isn't much better and is discontinued.
Other than the $250k+ upcoming roadster and the $60k EV6 GT (cheap cloth seats, no leather option, Kia badge) there's really nothing out there that handles well. Pretty huge gap in the market there.
Sohcahtoa82 7 hours ago [-]
I want an electric convertible Corvette C8.
Sadly, I might have to settle for the Porsche 718. Polestar 6 got me excited, but that project is basically dead, especially with Polestar being effectively banned starting with model year 2027. If the US government got its head out of its ass regarding Chinese cars, I'd REALLY like a BYD Denza Z Spider.
The sad thing is, the Venn Diagram of EV enthusiasts and sports car enthusiasts is almost two separate circles.
bluGill 7 hours ago [-]
That Venn diagram will collapse to the same thing very quickly once someone actually brings out a good electric sports car. Electric has significant advantages in acceleration. As soon as you can use an electric car on a race track, people will discover they're blowing away their competition. On the track we are talking about the difference between your losses during shifts and the full torque right off the line, which is maybe only a second per lap, but a second would be shatteringly huge in a race.
Of course a lot of race rules are very strict and an electric car wouldn't qualify and also most electric cars don't have enough power to show this off but the potential is right there.
ggreer 5 hours ago [-]
What about the Model 3 Performance? It accelerates faster than the EV6 GT, has more range, and is several hundred pounds lighter. Cornering ability seems to be similar, as both get 0.92g in skid pad tests.
teamonkey 8 hours ago [-]
Hyundai’s Ioniq 6 N is a sister to the EV6 GT with a better interior and a little more of a Supra vibe
CamperBob2 8 hours ago [-]
If you can live with two seats, Porsche seems to have finally greenlighted production of the electric Boxster/Cayman. I believe that platform will be shared with Audi to make a lower-cost offering available.
formerly_proven 11 hours ago [-]
The EV6 GT is a 1550mm tall crossover SUV-coupe weighing almost 4900 lbs with 577 hp, but is more of a young man's sports car than a 1380mm tall sedan weighing 100 lbs more but approaching twice the power? Seems sensible.
octoberfranklin 11 hours ago [-]
You clearly haven't driven both.
Who cares if the roof is higher off the ground? The EV6's center of mass is much lower than the Porsche's.
The EV6 GT suspension is vastly superior, and it's active electronic; the Taycan just toggles between two settings ("normal" and "high-clearance" for going over speed bumps).
The EV6 GT's rear differential has electronic control; you can feel it when you take freeway turns at >80mph -- your brain tells you "the rear wheels should be fishtailing"... but they just don't. It's crazy. I think they actually factor in the steering wheel position, something you can't do with a simple mechanical differential. I've never felt anything like that in any other car.
But it still has the Kia badge. And the cheap interior. It's a shame; they could've used this car to launch an "Acura"-like brand with the EV6 GT as their NSX.
Still, Porsche should be embarrassed of the Taycan. That car is a joke.
BuffaloEric33 11 hours ago [-]
"But it still has the Kia badge. And the cheap interior. It's a shame; they could've used this car to launch an "Acura"-like brand with the EV6 GT as their NSX."
Isn't that kinda what the Genesis GV60 is supposed to be? Granted it doesn't have the same HP as the EV6 GT, AFAIK....
pryelluw 11 hours ago [-]
Been waiting for this and a plug-in hybrid Corolla with at least 50 mile electric range. Would be a game changer.
XorNot 5 hours ago [-]
Too little too late. I bought a BYD Atto 2 this month and it's great.
My statements up till now were "yeah I'll get an EV when Toyota makes one" except here we are.
It is unbelievable how badly Toyota has fumbled the EV market.
kyleee 4 hours ago [-]
Why won’t they put the rav4 hybrid engine the Tacoma and sell it to me?
woggy 9 hours ago [-]
Is it that hard? Take a normal car, take engine out, put electric motor in. Don't fuck around with the inside.
Rohansi 9 hours ago [-]
Based on pretty much every electric car out there, yes. They have to change everything.
woggy 6 hours ago [-]
They can keep the buttons and the normal interiors instead of making them look like something out of Star Trek.
hacker_88 8 hours ago [-]
5 minutes charging? No
Solid State? No
Swapping? No
Hydrogen? No
Doa ? Yes
chaostheory 7 hours ago [-]
I love the aggressive design which is a stark contrast to the quirky toy designs that plagued EVs early on.
maxlin 2 hours ago [-]
Corolla is supposed to be the cheap one. But this concept looks way too flashy and the prices seem quite "meh" for affordability.
What a missed opportunity.
mikeweiss 5 hours ago [-]
Great! Now what's Honda waiting for?
erxam 5 hours ago [-]
They cancelled and destroyed their 0 Series EV line when it was basically two days away from starting deliveries and now they have absolutely nothing to show for it.
They are so unbelievably fucked. I wouldn't be surprised if they eventually pull out of the car manufacturing game and exclusively stick to motorcycles.
hackerbeat 10 hours ago [-]
Just another ugly car. These days they all look like angry vacuum cleaners.
ck2 13 hours ago [-]
can we get a car that doesn't self-drive or phone-home?
just replace all the gas burning, oil dripping parts
electric cars also produce way less brake dust particulates, so it's a win all around
just stop trying to make a car a smartphone
reilly3000 12 hours ago [-]
At this point I’d pay a significant premium to the dealership and brand that will:
- A. make me an accessor to any datasets (and derivative reports that include my data if you want an extra poisonous pill) that include my data as a full dump and access log of my records and ‘admin’ activities.
- B. Tear out the telemetry hardware, or let me send it to my own endpoint. No satellite access needed. No thanks, driver cam. Who needs LoJack when we have Flock?
- C. Sell a car that’s built to be owned and operated by a human, not an auto brand. If they want to subscribe to some sort of remote assistance subscription, that would be an aftermarket 3rd party device. Open software and hardware within safety protocols increase the value proposition significantly. I would think this is the lowest TCO option, with standard, locally milled parts.
One can dream, right?
nunez 5 hours ago [-]
i'm actually of the opposite camp...sort of.
I want a dead simple car with the Waymo Driver installed and integrated.
My current car is a 2026 Model Y, but between public transit, Waymo being available in my town, and, soon, me taking possession of a top-of-the-line Brompton electric folding bike, I hardly drive the thing.
When I do drive it, however, I want it to drive itself, since I'm probably driving because I am either (a) going on a road trip that is made more fun by the car driving itself, or (b) am going somewhere that I have to drive to and am wishing the entire time that I wasn't.
someonebaggy 12 hours ago [-]
I think that's what Edison Motors is doing but only for trucks? I don't know how they're getting on now. Maybe they already failed.
You could be the first to make one. I've only heard of Edison because of their social media (so maybe a scam) - but they were showing off how they just bought a random truck and replaced the engine as a prototype
asdff 12 hours ago [-]
>electric cars also produce way less brake dust particulates
Depends. Compared to a competent driver in a manual transmission, I doubt it. Manual transmission cars can brake with the engine instead of brakes. You also may be on the order of 1-2000+lbs lighter.
Then there's tire dust particulate considerations with the heavier EV with all that torque.
Tistron 8 hours ago [-]
From what I've read, EVs mostly break with the engine, and recover quite some of the energy that way. To the point that I've read warnings about the breaks rusting here in south Sweden, and that you need to do some aggressive breaking now and then to clean them out.
reverius42 8 hours ago [-]
With my EV I rarely, rarely use the actual brakes. It's almost all engine braking (with power recovery) -- this is how 1-pedal driving generally works in an EV.
Sohcahtoa82 7 hours ago [-]
You do know that regen braking is a thing, right? The friction brakes on an EV are basically never applied except in emergencies or at speeds under 10 mph.
EVs end up with unique brake problems because they get used so little.
> Then there's tire dust particulate considerations with the heavier EV with all that torque.
This part is slightly true. EVs are heavier and will wear out tires faster, and if you actually use the extra torque, that'll contribute.
mrweasel 12 hours ago [-]
Like the Slate truck, to bad it's impressively expensive for a bare bones car.
Except for the tire and road wear. The extra weight isn't free.
ramesh31 13 hours ago [-]
Maybe, some day, eventually, many years into the future.
/shrug.
quietlathe 5 hours ago [-]
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remusrm 4 hours ago [-]
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wetpaws 1 hours ago [-]
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small_model 12 hours ago [-]
Any design of a future car with manual controls is already obsolete or admitting they have no autonomy stack.
thraway3837 7 hours ago [-]
Given Toyota's history on EV execution and their chairman who likes to wear the red hat clown costume and parade around and support the Jan 6th insurrection, I'm not waiting around for this mediocre junk to come out. D- for the effort.
They will absolutely make this EV extremely mediocre and then tell the world that nobody wants EVs. Sub 50kW charging, limited to only a few times a day, terrible range, terrible interiors that still don't support iOS/Android screens.
The new Lexus ES350e, which comes in both hybrid and EV flavors, has been pretty universally panned as a mediocre EV [1]. Lexus anticipates that the vast majority of ES sales will be for the hybrid model, and I expect the same will be true of the Corolla.
The updated bZ and new bZ Woodland on the other hand, which are built as ground-up EVs on the e-TNGA platform, actually seem pretty decent. And I'm hopeful for the upcoming EV Highlander, too (although that will use a modified version of the TNGA-K platform).
I would prefer if Toyota just released a new EV model with roughly the same proportions as the Corolla, instead of going with the one-size-fits-all approach. But maybe they'll finally be able to get it right this time.
[1] https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QQ97R1nhq4M
Indeed. Toyota's days are numbered.
BYD is selling EVs for US$14K in Australia. Toyota is Nokia, they don't know it just yet. Corolla EV is 30K USD, gas 25K.
AUD 19,900 driveway (means taxes, registration etc included), or about US$14K: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=49772728
BYD Dolphin base in Japan is $19k, the new Racco kei car is $14k. They're not doing so well - they just have no selling point. They're not even the cheapest of EVs in Japan, let alone the cheapest of all cars for Japan - $19k is literally 4k over the current gen JDM Corolla. I think that is an indication that BYD has no secret sauce but their pricing are just introductory one to starve off last bits of Western industrial capacities spared by Japanese automakers.
Japanese are known to be racist. Japan and China have a lot of history. Chinese cars are selling well in most countries where the entrenched manufacturers haven't convinced their Govts to screw their people with bans and tariffs.
A 10 year old tesla can heat and cool the battery before leaving, you could set a daily time to heat it up, or just turn it on just before you go manually if you wished.
Likewise, in university, my friend's army jeep had a gas heater that would melt snow off his canvas roof.
People are consuming 30% of their battery power to heat the vehicle and batteries - and that's with reduced battery range. It only makes sense to add a container for gas/diesel and a heater - really can't understand why manufacturers are against instant and very low cost heat as an option to protect range and increase safety (in case you're stranded in the winter with a depleted battery).
Best of luck adapting one to your vehicle.
EVs play a role in the energy ecosystem. They absorb excess production during the day and can supply power back to the grid by participating in a virtual power plant (VPP).
I really hope you succeed
An EV built on a dedicated platform doesn’t become more profitable than the shared platform version until it sells about two million copies. That’s because it costs $1B more in fixed costs for a dedicated EV manufacturing setup. If that car isn’t going to sell that many, it’s not worth making dedicated. In Europe EVs are still outsold by ICE 4 to 1. Even if I did sell two million copies, all you have done is recouped your $1B, not made any more profit than if you did the shared platform.
https://thedriven.io/2026/09/16/australias-cheapest-new-car-...
Denza or Zeekr or Genesis or Tesla? Xpeng or Leapmotor or Geely or Kia or Hyundai or Mazda? BYD or MG or GWM or Chery or Jaecoo?
Plus the various Porsche, Audi and VW electric options, Subaru and Toyota, even the new Range Rover. There are far more electric options than petrol, and a lot of them are significantly better at the same or lower price point.
How many people are really driving 240~ miles per day? Practically nobody...that's like 3.5 hours at motorway speeds.
Inb4 the typical response of "every American commutes 99999 miles per day!!!"
Charging at 1kw at home would be perfectly fine for average use cases.
Faster charging gives you more options. 1kW might be fine on the average day for a small, efficient EV but it’d occasionally be limiting.
The #1 thing (in my opinion) that makes a difference in how easy it is to own an EV is whether you have a driveway or predictable parking spot overnight. Then you just stop thinking about this sort of stuff, ever.
In fact, since I got an EV (I have a two-car garage), I have forgotten to even check my gas car's fuel levels and have driven it near empty a handful of times, I simply forget to even check.
And as others have said, unless you're driving 250mi a day, a regular commute, you can recharge your car on a wall outlet. It does about 12 miles of range per hour, you can easily get about 100 miles of range every night.
A lot of parking spots have chargers. So we only charge it when e.g. bringing our daughter to sports or when my wife is at her choir. That way the car practically always has enough juice.
When traveling, we’ve found that we are generally more efficient. We stop every three hours anyway to get a drink or eat something and hook it up to a fast charger. Since we would have these breaks with an ICE vehicle as well, we skip the separate stop for refueling.
It’s funny, the first time we made a long trip with our EV we tried to plan where to charge, etc. Now we just go without thinking about it, because there are always some fast charging options when you need it (though e.g. NL is much better than DE).
Once you have one of these things, the problems that sound insurmountable turn out to be not much.
12kWh is 40 miles, closer to 25-30 in cold climate.
This is absolutely not a range that the average person would be happy with. And no, this isn't range anxiety or bad faith, it's literally less than the average daily commute (30 miles round trip).
Obviously, if you’re the kind of person who often drives 100+ miles day after day, then L1 charging isn’t going to meet your needs. Those people should budget for an L2 charger at home. Otherwise, upgrading your home charger is a fun optimization for nerds, but not a prerequisite to own an electric car.
Even the cheapest cars have ranges of around 400 km. That's several days of commuting. You can forget to charge for three days and you'll still be fine.
And if you really do forget to charge three days in a row, just drive to a nearby fast charger, wait for 10 minutes, and then you're set to go.
If all you need (and all you're capable of charging) is 35mi of range, buying an EV is incredibly stupid, and you are continually placing yourself at risk of running out of battery. If the threat of an unscheduled errand would leave you stranded, you bought the wrong car.
EVs are impractical unless all (frequently unsaid) prerequisites are met.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5NG4hycq8n0
I installed one from Emporia, for about $500.
At the end of the day hybrids are a transitional technology, and it makes sense to ditch the ICE entirely as soon as you can.
The trend is obvious though, as EV adoption increases hybrid adoption goes down.
https://www.theguardian.com/environment/2026/sep/04/ev-sales...
Granted it may result in Toyota losing the battle in the long run. On the other hand any large improve in batteries may gradually bring Toyota into EV world just by letting to upsize the plugins' batteries.
Personally i like very much my 2015 Prius Plugin, and the only thing i'd want about it is to have additional 20KWh of batteries (may be one day i'll throw them in myself :)
But I would much rather be doing all of my driving in EV mode. I just think it's going to take another generation of battery improvements before we start seeing affordable 3-row MPVs (which is what I drive) with decent range. The VW Buzz and Kia PV5 have well under 300 miles range, for example.
China does have some pretty awesome looking EV MPVs like the Zeekr 009, which supposedly gets up to 500 miles range. But that won't be available here any time soon.
Improvements in charging speed and improved charging infrastruture will also help a lot.
"Dual-motor variants produce up to 603–789 horsepower (450 kW to over 580 kW), delivering rapid acceleration comparable to sports sedans"
speaking about anemic minivan for soccer moms...
US electricity averages 384g CO2/kWh, so EVs emit 100-130g/mile, equivalent to 90-110mpg. And that improves year on year, while an ICE is at best as efficient as when it was produced
Also, 40% of U.S. power generation is renewable? Impressive!
Sadly, there's few good PHEV options. And even Toyota underserves this market.
And yeah I've got to bring it in for oil changes, but that's no big deal for me. They also take care of other things like inspecting the car, changing wiper blades, air filters, putting on/taking off winter tires, and maintaining my coating. It's usually pretty quick (and they give me a loaner when it's not going to be quick), they are friendly, and they have snacks and wifi. It's also a relatively inexpensive compared to the total cost of owning a car.
There is some complexity for the driver in terms of deciding whether you want to drive in EV or Hybrid mode if you want to get the most out of it - so not something I would recommend for everyone - but no problem at all for me.
The bigger issue I would say it cost. They cost significantly more than HEV equivalents, and it's not something most people are likely to recoup in fuel savings. But still worth it IMO for additional (and instantaneous) power and quieter ride.
PHEV was definitely the no brainer option for me (vs EV) when I looked at the MPV options available in my country, and the state of charging infrastructure. But I look forward to the day when battery tech and charging infrastructure improve the the point where I can comfortably ditch the ICE.
Most EV owners don't even know there is a cabin air filter or how to change it, then go on Reddit and YouTube to complain their EV smells like mold and cat piss. It's insane how uninformed some of them are, they act like it's newfound knowledge that you need to fill the windshield washer fluid (which they boast about filling with tap water, or paying $100 to special order magical OEM Rivian fluid instead of a $2 jug at Walmart).
I was able to drive there, they did some breaks fluid change for free and thats it, meanwhile my friend with a bmw spent ~$2.5k in service since 3 years he bought it.
The only expense I had is changing tires, that i did in a regular tire shop.
Yeah keep laughing.
Still less than an ICE.
And also it’s just going to be confusing for the customers. Which one to get? Which one is better? It’s hard to imagine how same platform can have efficient structural layout for the large battery and for the ICE engine.
EV is much about software as well, and Toyota is not going to shine in this area either…
Unless you mean software as in fart apps on the touch screen, then yeah, Toyota lags in that department.
I think the issue is time and money. Toyota maybe doesn't want to spend the money on a completely different car in the compact sedan category just for EVs - at least not yet. Plus, it might mean waiting several years when they want something out now. Sometimes it's about tradeoffs like time and money. Adapting an ICE Corolla might be reasonably cheap and fast. They might feel the need to have an EV Corolla out sooner than later. They might want to take their time with a new platform EV so that they don't put out something that doesn't meet their quality standards. While the drivetrain might be different, everything else in the Corolla is battle tested.
Just look at the Mercedes S class versus the EQS. The EQS was ground up designed as an EV and because of the design decisions made in that process is the ugliest Mercedes designed ever.
Same with the Audi A6 which was always a masterclass in design and now is a generic blob of a car with the new EV only model.
So not just an aesthetic choice, although carmakers do seem to “lean in” to that aesthetic and go all in on the futuristic look with EVs.
I don't need 400 mile ranges; I'm happy to half that to get a shorter front so I can see the corners, a squared off hatch at the back, and proper headroom. Basically give me a smaller Transit van.
In my calculation it was around 100 miles range tops due to battery weight, aerodynamics, unoptimized drivetrain, etc.
[0] https://encrypted-tbn0.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcS7clbT...
The closest thing I could find to a "normal car but electric" was the Hyundai Kona EV (I know, it's more small-SUV than 'car). So, I bought one.
It's good. There are physical controls for the temperature and volume, and the door handles aren't stupid.
I walked away from a Ford Mach-E because I didn't want to have to explain how to open the doors to ever person I drove for the next five years.
It's too bad Europe and Asia get all of the nice EV sedans like Dacia Spring and BYD Dolphin. This article even says Toyota hasn't committed to this Corolla EV in the US market, which is shameful.
Note that this is a concept, I've never seen an actual production model look anything like the concept.
My father has a hybrid model, 2023 MY I think. It has physical controls for the radio, for AC and related things, for the heated seats, for the various "driver assist" features (like auto high beams, a parking thing (no idea what that is), radar, lane assist). It has a touchscreen, but that only seems to handle the maps, fancy radio controls (think equalizer and such), and other "car settings", whatever those are. You can absolutely drive it without ever having to interact with the touchscreen while doing normal things. I hate touchscreen controls as much as the next HN poster, but I have strictly 0 beef with the Corolla on this front. Door handles and windows work exactly the same as on my 2005 "dumb" car. Hell, I think it even has a physical toggle for the "automatic night mode" on the rear-view mirror, while mine couldn't be "non automatic".
To GP's point, I don't think it ever was an "entry level" car, just a "normal compact" car. I don't see why adding an electric drivetrain would have someone expect it would somehow become a basic, "entry-level" car.
I don't say we don't need those, but the Corolla never seems to have targeted that market, at least here in Europe. There always were plenty similar-sized cheaper and more basic cars from domestic manufacturers. Is it different in the US?
Yeah the new Nissan Leaf looked horrible as a concept car, very "2003 idea of the future". The actual production version is just a boring SUV
As an exception to this rule, the original Audi TT was surprisingly similar to the concept car and even the initial concept sketches. They had a crazy design idea and just went with it.
Looking forward to the Volkswagen ID Polo hitting the used market in a couple of years. Physical buttons, decent range and charge times, and it’s rated to pull reasonable loads.
Physical buttons. Carplay. 0-60 in 6.5 seconds and wide enough tires, so it can keep up.
Not quite normal but not "future" - the Renault 5 E-tech electric is nice but I don't think it's available in the US.
It was too expensive!
My wife bought one of the first edition models. Other than the lousy range, it’s incredibly cool.
I had a good camping experience with the Niro. Since Kia doesn't believe in spare tires being default, I was able to stuff sleeping bags, beds and a bunch of other stuff all underneath the hatchback floor, in all that secret space, leaving a ton of room above for everything else.
I like the acceleration and quiet/clean operation of electrics, but in the end I got a 6 speed manual.
Electrics are super dangerous; they accelerate like souped-up competitive track cars. They really need to tone that down: use much smaller motors with less torque, and hack the software to cap the acceleration.
I'm a much calmer driver in a manual. I'm driving for fuel economy, so I'm always in a gear where I have no power. (And in a 6 speed that has about the range of a 5 speed, there is always a good gear to be in at city speeds, where you are at between 1500-1800 RPM). So, I cannot just step on the accelerator on a whim because that will usually do nothing. There is an activation energy for speeding up, due to the chore of shifting down, which discourages doing it casually. In an electric it's like, oh, I suddenly see this opportunity, and blam: you're on the accelerator and the distance between here and there is erased faster than you can hit backspace.
I have to drive quite a bit because kids. If I like the driving, it's less of a chore.
With a manual car, I never grumble when I have to drive, even if it takes me away from something fun.
I try to make it so that you can't feel that I'm changing gears, and that's next to impossible under "sporty" driving, where you can't hide the difference between hard acceleration and no acceleration during the rev hangs.
6 speeds gearboxes that have about the range of 5 speeds are great for smooth gear changes because the gear ratios are closer, and so if you accelerate gently and shift at low RPMs, the rev hangs are very quick. You can also gently pause and resume accelerations and shift during the pauses. The last shift at cruising speed is free of acceleration also.
I also use cruise control whenever possible. That's all the self-driving I need, thank you very much. Previous manual cars I've driven didn't have it! Manual + cruise = super!
Do you also not have house monitoring (you don't need to control every light switch (which can be useful to have lights on when you get back home), but things like temperature, humidity, power use, air quality, water use/leaks is far cheaper than 1 insurance claim).
Incidentally, this is also partly why the interiors feel so egregious and cheap in the pieces of shit produced by Germans these days.
Of course a dealership could offer low rates, but those are usually through the financing arm of the brand, not the dealership itself.
BTW: The price premium for electric is offset by the lower cost of electricity, and the fact that electricity's cost is much less volatile than gas.
Plus they last basically forever and require almost no maintenance. I like being able to never change oil, tune up, belts, whatever every few months. Every few years I get the cabin filter changed and that’s it. In 10 years the battery might be reduced by 20%, and I might replace the batteries around 15-20 years out, but I expect to literally drive it into the ground. (Mine is a Tesla with unlimited super charging for life, and I live next to a super charger)
I have family overseas and will likely buy them one of these EV Camrys. If they’re good, I might get one for my daughter. At $30k it’s fairly affordable.
Non-peak electricity rate in some parts of California is $0.45/kWh or thereabouts, 2-3x what it is elsewhere in the country.
It makes the future feel fun, and feels like a return to adventurous aesthetics for the pure sake of it. At the very least, it's noticably different and interesting. I hope architecture follows suit.
They just get completely watered down for production. As will happen here. That's why they're concepts.
there is a chance that slapping one screen is now lower cost than few dozens mechanical knobs, connectors and sensors
I must be the minority surely, but given the choice between knobs and screen, knobs are the deciding factor. Even if it's more expensive, it's UX that you use permanently while operating heavy machinery!
Provided there's steering wheel and stalk controls, what do I really need to adjust on a center console while driving? I just want a big nav map or camera feed there.
The only notable thing I couldn't do was adjust the fan level if it was on automatic, but I could turn it off.
IMO if you might need it while driving it should be on the wheel or the stalks. Center console? That's for my passenger to mess with only, or for when I'm stopped.
https://www.toyota.com/prius/
What am I missing? Or is it just that folks want buttons? Is it the design?
I really like having dedicated buttons to disable driving assistance. It's handy when you're going through a drive through and you want to disable parking beeps that remind you not to run into the building. It's also handy if lane following gets annoying when road conditions demand ignoring the lane lines. I think NHTSA pushed to remove easy access to disable assistance though?
I don't mind using a screen for things I don't need to do while in motion. Like if I want to set if the car should beep when I lock the doors, or how many times the blinker should blink if I tap it and didn't mean it but it wants to be helpful... screens are wonderful for that. But if I need to focus on a screen to do things while I'm driving, I've lost focus on the surroundings.
Also if you had electric door locks and windows (we didn't) the driver's door had 4 window levers and a child lock button while everyone else had their own window lever.
- turning the air conditioning up or down (or off) while I'm driving and feel too hot/cold
- adjusting the volume of music or the radio while driving
- turning on the radio
- turning seat heaters on or off
I don't want to fiddle with a touchscreen to do any of these things while the car is in motion.
On the other hand, boy when I get a rental car there are so many buttons to mess around with it's like going backwards in time (for me) in terms of ease of use. Even something like having to turn on/off the car itself is now a chore. Why do I need to even turn the car on? It should just always work. Obviously part of that is "it's a new car" but a lot of that stuff seems very needlessly complex. I'm not talking about turning the heat on or off even though a lot of those implementations seem way more complicated than they need be (engineers gonna engineer and over-complicate things unless someone stops them) but other random things.
- Window controls and lock/unlock
- Power mirrors adjustment (after someone else has driven the car)
--
- Light stick/knob (it has auto mode)
- Steering wheel control for the head unit (vol +/-,...). It also has cruise but I don't use that
- Wiper and washers stick/knob
--
- AC adjustment. It's a knob for temperature with 2 buttons inside (auto mode toggle and off)
- Fresh/recycled air switch
- AC/ventilation switch
- Ventilation speed. It's also a knob with 2 buttons, but I only remember the mode one (to switch between front/front and feet/heater/...)
- A defrost button
- ESP (ABS) disable button
--
- Window/door lock/ on the passenger door.
There's nothing else. For any of those buttons I would hate to use a touch screen. With physical controls, I can rely on location, haptic, and muscle memory without using vision.
Some of the buttons you mentioned you have dedicated buttons for but at least for the Tesla some of those adjustments you do while parked and just swap the button mode. It allows for multi-use buttons which is pretty cool.
I’m not arguing against buttons or something to be clear, just sharing my experience. It seems like some other cars have a lot of unnecessary ones.
But I'm talking beyond just the buttons. Pure analog. No telemetry. No cellular connection. Real rack and pinion again. Real gauges. No drive by wire wherever possible. Maybe the actual ev motor output can be controlled with a simple switch in the circuit vs an entire ecu with throttle profiles and all the bullshit. Basically, your car in 2003, with the gas engine replaced with an electric motor. Pure car. Dead simple systems. Easy access engine bays.
It isn't happening again. These things are ipads on wheels that try and surveil you and come up with datapoints they can somehow make some money off of.
Not just that: my hands get dry enough sometimes that my phone's touch interface doesn't work reliably, in which case, I'd expect a touchscreen interface in a newer car would face similar problems. Physical buttons don't have that problem.
Your gas car in 2003 probably directly connects the accelerator pedal to the throttle ... but it also has an entire ecu with a whole bunch of stuff to figure out how much fuel to add given the throttle position / airflow and also almost certainly has the ecu controlling ignition too. Even my 1981 van has an ECU to sets fuel volume, although it doesn't have electronic ignition or water cooling.
You can open the throttle all the way, and if the fuel volume doesn't change, you won't get much in the way of extra vrooming.
That said, as simple as possible, but no simpler is a good goal.
A gas car has the pedal setup to open the throttle valve and let in more air and then some additional system for more air is more fuel... an ECU in open loop measures the airflow and engine temperature and triggers the injectors for a certain amount, in closed loop it will read the o2 sensor and adjust fueling to get the right mix.
If you move to drive by wire, now you have an electrical signal for the pedal, but you didn't necessarily simplify the system because you also have to add a way for the ecu to control the throttle valve or otherwise regulate intake airflow.
Nit: electric power steering is still rack and pinion. The old system is hydraulic vs electric.
But I'm not sure what I'm supposed to do with all these gauges and stuff. I have 0 interest in trying to repair my car or understand how any of it works. I just want to get in, have it be super comfortable, everything works and it gets me from A to B pretty fast. The only gauge I care about is the speed at which the car is traveling. Well the battery too I guess but if I'm taking a trip where that's of concern the car handles the stops for me.
I get that people do enjoy that stuff which is super cool - I'm not hating on it, but figured I'd just provide a different perspective maybe. For me the biggest concern is just this dog shit Android software and abandonware that all the manufacturers create (except Tesla funny enough - I'm not a shill or anything, Elon sucks and I'll never buy another one because of him) which I think is probably the biggest negative to the iPad-ification. Thankfully there's Android Auto and Apple Car Play but still the computers in the cars can be underpowered to use those.
Now I'm imagining drivers swapping tubes as they stop for a quick charge.
It's a car. That's electric.
Physical buttons. Normal doors. Normal design. Normal handles. Normal controls. Drives great and accelerates better than an economy gas car.
As a bonus, that means almost the entire car is standard. Other than the electric drive train, a regular mechanic can work on everything else: tires, wheels, brakes, suspension, etc.
It's given us basically zero problems. Maintenance so far is a few minor recall items (free fixes) and a tire rotation. We bought it new during COVID.
Only downside to the 2021 model was the CHaDemO (or however you caps it) plug, which is obsolescent. I think recent models have CCS. There is a converter dongle and if I fast charged often I'd pick one up. Apparently they work but they're a little pricey since unfortunately it's not just a simple plug converter. It's a different signaling and locking system, so it has to be a smart dongle.
The Leaf is massively underrated IMO.
It has the usual modern car cost cutting where steering wheel inputs are plastic panels with mysterious capacitive regions and no feedback so you can't feel if you've successfully pressed anything, whether you pressed the right thing, or if your fingertips are too dry and don't register. Most of the center console inputs are replaced with a screen with another row of cheap capacitive touch icons below it.
Charging is behind the times again with an awkward 2-port arrangement, but it's different from the previous gen's J1772 L1/L2 and CHAdeMO for L3 up to 50 kW.
For 2026 they replaced the CHAdeMO port with NACS, supporting a maximum of 150 kW L3 charging, but it still uses a separate J1772 port for L1/L2 unlike every other car where the NACS port does both.
All things considered it's a solid entry level EV.
Don't get me wrong, my brother has one and it is an okay car. It's just not great. There are a number of limitations which is why he gave it to my mom and drives a bolt. (the use value of a leaf is poor enough that it isn't worth trying to sell.)
Any other electric car is suffering from the leaf's bad reputation, and yet they don't have the problems I named.
... probably.
Given that the Prius made it's first appearance in 1997.
I really need to do a write-up on the dichotomy of EV things being good (charger works, no real battery QC issues, it's a RAV4-but-EV) while all of the shared ICE parts (anything in the software stack) are riddled with bugs or head-scratching defaults.
Overall, a fine car for me, but (as much as I do not like El*n) Telsa is so significantly beyond their offerings it's hard to overstate.
EDIT:
I forgot to add but I think the cost savings for EVs can be a wash, make sure you check the following:
1.) can't charge at home / live in an apartment.
1a.) If you do install a L2 charger at home, you will significantly reduce your cost savings.
2.) you rely on fast-chargers in any significant capacity.
3.) Double check the math on any lease, loan, etc. on new EVs vs. a beater gas car. Especially if you pay an EV tax in your state or country. (Post-COVID the $2K beater car seems to have gone extinct here...)
I wonder, from your comments, and my cars, if the trick is ev-only designs, as the Solterra has various altered versions, as did the i4, whereas my i3 and Uncharted were designed only to be EVs.
edit: charging L2 at home is great, to your point.
My friend with a '25 taco has issues with remote start, fob range and infotainment stability.
My friend with a '24 corolla has the same issues on his car.
all kind of academic since I'm planning on getting a slate but it's nice to know Subaru is bouncing back from that Solterra disaster.
After returning a '25 Mercedes EQB (employee lease), I bought a used '23 Solterra, and it seems like a better than linear downgrade (that is, the overall experience is a bit worse, but the price is lower by more than how much worse it is). The software and interface are all completely fine, and stay out of the way of driving and Android Auto. And I'm rather glad for the lack of some of the bells and whistles, because the dashboard screen on the MB had too much going on.
> The software and interface are all completely fine
Perhaps whatever platform mine, my friends corolla and friends taco are on is just busted but I wish it had even 70% reliability of just working when I'm using anything software related.
They reversed that decision, the turn signal stalk was brought back.
They have ups and downs.
The build quality has improved significantly, though I would not put them on the level of a Toyota or anything. Maybe Ford.
The software is mostly quite a lot better, the quality of the infotainment exceeds almost anything else you can buy. The remote control ability is also exceptional. But they have glaring omissions like a refusal to support CarPlay. Or a persistent need to prove that vision can replace a bog standard IR rain sensor (it still cannot).
They do get some things right that for whatever reason seem difficult to get from other makers (like a simple climate hold when you park, or dog mode). And love it or hate it, FSD is light years ahead of anything else you can buy as a consumer. I won't pay for it, because I like to drive, but it now exceeds any expectation I ever had for it. I would wager that if I put grandma's house in the nav system and told the car to drive all the way there (about 175 miles distant), it would most probably take me all the way from my garage to grandma's driveway (and park) without me doing anything other than putting it in drive and hitting start.
I loathe Elon and this was a pretty big consideration, but I do not make purchases based on single factors, and overall the value proposition was impossible to ignore. Partly this is because there is basically zero competition for an M3P.
Even though my car has the older hardware, the self-driving is far beyond anything else I've used. It makes road trips far less tiring. I basically sit in the driver's seat while it drives from charging station to charging station. I've gone hundreds of miles without touching the steering wheel. Usually I intervene because I want to park in a specific spot, as the car tends to choose spots that are less convenient. Also it likes to park in my neighbor's driveway instead of mine. (The driveways are about 5 feet apart.)
The phone app lets you control all kinds of stuff remotely. I like to turn on the climate control before going to the car, that way my kid's car seat won't be uncomfortably warm on a sunny day. You can view the cameras from your phone, lock/unlock the car, open/close the windows, and open the trunk & frunk. And it works anywhere there's cell network connectivity, not just within direct radio range of the car.
I'd love it if more cars had these sorts of features, but I don't see it happening any time soon. Tesla seems to be a software company that happens to make cars, while everyone else is a car company that happens to make some software.
At least for me, the 26 is so much better built and fixed the insane body roll the 21 had that I'm quite happy with it.
My wife has also been full-EV for 5 years, first with a Kia Niro EV and now with a Hyundai Ioniq 9. Those are pretty good as "real car" EVs as well, though not without their own quirks (and, unfortunately, the Ioniq 9 recently had to have the ICCU replaced, as Hyundai still seemingly hasn't figured that problem out over the years).
Not to say that the Solterra's is ideal either. It's an awkward dial shifter below the HVAC controls, but at least it's a physical interface.
It works but it's a lot slower than just using the stalk or even the on screen shifter. But that's probably because I got used to not needing to come to a stop before switching gears.
I feel similarly. When I use the touchscreen to reverse direction, I grimace every time at the silly design. Or when the wipers do a dry wipe on a bright sunny day. But when I drive, it's all smiles, especially when I punch it (I have an M3P, and while it is no Plaid, it is fast enough to make people giggle).
(also kind of wild to me that an EV focused blog wouldn't mention this a single time since Toyota is (was?) arguably one of the staunchest and most stubborn anti-EV manufacturers out there)
Now most companies have written off their crazy investments in EVs. Honda has discontinued Prologue and so on.
https://finance.yahoo.com/news/toyota-scrutinized-after-rest...
I do feel like y'all need to read the news more instead of just going by brand rep
https://chargedevs.com/newswire/toyota-actively-lobbies-agai...
https://thedriven.io/2026/06/17/japan-car-giants-still-pushi...
https://blog.ucs.org/dave-reichmuth/why-does-toyota-oppose-c...
and here's their CEO going on a tirade about Japan's EV-adoption mandate: https://evannex.com/blogs/news/puzzled-by-toyota-ceo-s-anti-...
I own EVs but I am opposed to "mandates", opposing coercion makes you anti coercion not the objective of coercion.
also the accusation of 'vested interest' is very funny to me as someone who is proverbially hiding all his liquidity under a mattress (ie bonds) until this AI bubble pops and whose sources are 1) a non-profit and 2) a Union of Concerned Scientists blog
if you have other sources that talk about how great Toyota is, that'd be wonderful
How? Toyota has been the best selling automaker for the last six years straight:
https://www.reuters.com/business/autos-transportation/toyota...
In 2025 Toyota had record sales.
Public policy should not insist on one technology to the exclusion of viable alternatives.
Fuel cells are stupid, though.
https://www.citizen.org/article/driving-denial-how-toyotas-u...
> Over the last three electoral cycles, Toyota has become the top auto industry financier of climate deniers[4]. It has helped to finance campaigns of 207 climate-denying congressional candidates, more than twice as many as Ford and nearly 50% more than General Motors, the only other automakers with federal political action committees (PACs)
> [Toyota] is bankrolling an army of climate denying lawmakers and lobbying aggressively against emissions and fuel economy standards
>and all it took was two decades and millions of spend in anti-EV lobbying before they finally gave in, huh
EVs are a stupid idea and will remain so for the foreseeable future. If you want to complain about their funding of climate deniers, complain about that. But don't criticize them for their justified dismissal of the EV mania.
I am disappointed Toyota is making EVs now. That doesn't mean I am a fan of the company; I don't even own a car.
I am so glad that there are manufacturers who disagree with you, because I would cry real tears if I were forced to go back to ICE.
HEV, PHEV, ICE. All are valid alternatives. Hydrogen cars are stupid though.
I mean for gosh sakes, they make semitrucks, boats, and planes with batteries. Huge grid storage systems as well.
Wait till you hear about German car manufacturers. It's not even that long ago that e.g. Mercedes said that their target audience doesn't want EVs and they will never (!) give in to that market. Now look at them. All of them.
it's sunk cost on their hydrogen cell R&D - they want there to still be room for that instead of going with electrification but they have to diversify their portfolio to keep up with markets
> "Toyota in particular has been vocal that they are uninterested in making ZEVs available in California. [...] Toyota has invested in hydrogen fuel cell electric vehicles [instead]."
London is beautiful!
People drive Corollas because they're cheap and reliable. Give me that with an electric motor.
The Dacia Spring is what the market actually seems to want:
https://www.dacia.co.uk/hybrid-and-electric-range/spring-cit...
It's a car, not an Autobot.
Outside of Tesla owners, I don't know a single EV owner who praises these elements. The EV market does not want this.
Is it or is it not the best-selling vehicle to date? Should be pretty simple to determine.
I wonder if you combine the numbers of the VW Golf, Rabbit, Bora, Jetta, Corrado and Scirocco if it beats that 57 million.
Then I read the key quote and realized that Toyota isn't transforming the Corolla into an electric vehicle. They're simply going to offer an electric option. That's much less of an interesting headline, which explains why it wasn't chosen.
> “Whether it’s a battery EV, plug-in hybrid, hybrid, or internal combustion engine vehicle―whatever the power source―let’s make good-looking cars that everyone will want to drive!” Toyota’s CEO said at the Japan Mobility Show.
Meanwhile the Chinese companies are disrupting the overseas market for all of them (which is why Toyota is fretting). Many don't realize the disruptive potential of China's battery, EV, and solar panel supply chain combined with the oil shock - many subtropical countries are on the verge of flipping their economies to be linked to China's because of this. The long term consequences for American and European manufacturing supply chains will be major - not just in terms of present but future orders, since many of those countries are continuing to grow their consumer base faster than US/EU.
I don't think that's a fair assessment of the EV market, which continues to grow, albeit slowly, in the US and much faster elsewhere. At best it is constrained to the US car market where the government has been yanking incentives, tariffs, and emissions requirements back and forth recently, providing an unstable market for manufacturers to invest in.
Some brands put together EV models that were inherently unprofitable, and hoped that incentives and scale would save them, mainly Ford. Ford is currently investing a lot into building their next-gen EV platforms which should be both more affordable and profitable. GM has not cancelled any EV models that I'm aware of, except the Bolt which is planned to be replaced by a new affordable EV model in a similar market slot.
VW is introducing a lot of new EV models in Europe and other markets, but not so much in the US where policy has us a less favorable market for them.
Toyota + Subaru have introduced multiple refreshed or brand new EV-only models over the last year including in the US.
And of course China is going crazy for EVs with many competing domestic manufacturers, a full battery supply chain, and many affordable models to pick from.
https://dcfctracker.com/map
No you don't. 20 minutes at a DCFC will get you to at least 80% for most EVs.
You need several hours to charge it at home, but it's gonna be at home for several hours anyways. With an L2 charger, you can go from 0-100% overnight.
L2 charging usually happens overnight, but larger capacity batteries won't fill if you don't plug in early enough.
It is 300 miles to my mom's house. Some electric cars could just make that in perfect conditions but give me a headwind or a cold day both of which happen once in a while and I can't make 300 miles on a charge and I will have to stop in the middle. At that point a fast charge is required. It is not acceptable to say I have to stop somewhere that I don't want to be for many hours to charge my car to get it the rest of the way. That is a trip where, if you have to make it, there isn't a better option. Flying would be even longer than driving by the time I get to the airport and rent a car on the far end, not to mention a lot more expensive.
At least in the U.S. it is very common for people to make a one or two thousand mile trip once a year for vacation. Particularly if you have a family, flying is not a reasonable cost and so you'll take those several days of driving to save money. Those road trips also let you stop someplace and see some weird small-town exhibit which is fun in its own way
I think the issue you're stuck on is driving an EV like an ICEV. When you're low on gas you stop, fill up, and continue. It's slightly different with an EV because you shouldn't fill up all the way on a stop. That takes so much more time because the batteries charge slower as they fill up. So if you want to get somewhere quicker you should actually be charging less at stops and stopping more often. I don't know about other cars but Tesla has a good route planner built in that does this for you and preconditions the battery while you travel to a fast charger, which is also important to reduce charge times.
In that 300 mile trip, there is a gas station every 10 miles. There is a level 3 charger every 100 miles. Which is to say, I certainly can make the trip in my electric car, but I'm I have to make sure I stop where there's a charger because unlike a gas car I can't say the gauge is getting low. I'll stop at the next exit. I have to say the gauge is at half per charge - I better stop at the next charger because I don't know if I can make the one after that.
Except most people stop for 15 minutes to refuel when they're on a road trip.
And to share my own anecdote, I've never once waited for a charger.
This is a very unfortunate goal for Toyota specifically to have. I am extremely loyal to driving late 90s/early 2000s toyotas (I have owned at various points a 1997 corolla, a 1999 camry, and a 2000 tundra, and my daily driver today is such a car as well), due to them being extremely cost effective and also extremely reliable. A well-maintained, or even moderately maintained, late 90s/early 2000s Toyota car is, in my experience, almost as reliable as a new car that costs 4x+ the price, and it has the benefit of much less DRM, spyware, and other software bullshit, as well as being much easier to repair. I am also unaware of any modern car that is remotely like this, as well as unaware of any electric car that is remotely like this, except maybe Slate (though this is not available yet, so I am withholding judgement until I can see 3rd party reviews and maybe try one).
But, to summarize, I really like some of Toyota's old work for intensely practical reasons, and I think that this is a gap in the market of cars manufactured today (someone please tell me I am wrong by pointing to a good option on these criteria, preferably an EV!), and I couldn't give a rat's ass about the car being "good-looking", so it's unfortunate (though not surprising) that Toyota is deeming that their goal.
You see this recently over the last couple years in tech where everyone is "an AI company" even when they make something totally unrelated - same impulse, different industry.
It is completely baffling.
There must be something seriously wrong with our economy that companies operating like this don't go bankrupt and/or get driven out of business.
How dare you say this? These billionaires all work extremely hard for their money!
> most people who wanted EVs had already purchased them
You should really reconsider where you get your information from.
“Volkswagen reported more than 70,000 orders for its new Electric Urban Car Family within just a few weeks, while European BEV orders increased by more than 50% in Q2.”
https://www.volkswagen-group.com/en/half-yearly-financial-re...
If you have home charging, it's more likely that you'll have a mostly full battery than that the power outage will occur when you have a mostly full tank of gas.
It's a bit more work and expense but some EVs can even act as automatic or manual whole-home power backups.
Unless you live somewhere that regularly loses power for a week+, an EV might actually be a net benefit.
You could run your house for weeks off a 100kWh traction battery with V2G.
The people I know who are afraid of outages/EV usage are ones in CA, where an earthquake could knock out power, and they'd need to go a very long distance to get somewhere safe/stable.
If power is out in that large of a radius you would also likely have trouble getting gas.
And you don't need the expensive equipment to just run an extension cord from the EV to power critical appliances.
As for powering critical appliances, I'd need a super long heavy duty extension cord to power my fridge, and I don't even know if my vehicle is capable. I'd also have to have my garage door open while it's plugged in, which is not ideal to say the least.
> need a super long heavy duty extension cord to power my fridge
Why on earth would you need a heavy duty extension cord for something which pulls so little power?
I otherwise agree with the sentiment, however, it is way more convenient to set up your panel so you can backfeed it to power the whole house (or a nice chunk of it, at least). My Lightning will power all the important bits of my house for the better part of a week, all from the plug in the bed of the truck.
That it would be more convenient in the long run if I could backfeed to my panel, but almost no EVs in the U.S. are actually capable of this. The F-150 Lightning that you have is quite unique in this regard.
Don't get me wrong. The electric cars work just fine in cold weather. As long as your trip isn't too long. I however discovered the hard way last winter about a week after I got my electric car that when the weather is below zero Fahrenheit it gets about half the expected range and I had a trip that was just a little bit over half the expected range - I'm lucky there was a slow charger along that trip, there were no fast chargers anywhere along the route. (An hour charge over lunch got me the 10 extra miles I needed to get home - I didn't eat at my first choice but it worked)
It just means the US market is too unattractive and low-volume for EVs that aren't a Tesla.
Even with normal Gas prices EVs are cheaper
Not to mention how many people sleep on Level 1 and Level 2 charging, which are cheap or cheap as free in many homes. (Garages have had electric outlets for a long time. Some have had "dryer plugs" for nearly as long, due to power tools one might own.) Trickle charging doesn't get you to 100% overnight, but no one drives on a 100% full gas tank every morning either.
I know precisely zero people who have EVs and do not charge them at home. The cost differential is enormous and completely changes the economics of cost per mile.
> Trickle charging doesn't get you to 100% overnight, but no one drives on a 100% full gas tank every morning either.
Sure, but a full gas tank gets you further than a full battery. We have friends with a long range Tesla that takes them days to charge on 120. Despite living in a city with many Teslas, and having an expensive home, apparently it would have cost too much for them to upgrade their panel to be able to charge faster. They are retired so can make do (and they have other cars that use gas).
Which is exactly the point and why it is a bonus. You can't do that with a gas car effectively or cheaply. You won't pay someone to come and install a gas service in your home or apartment with the express reason for fueling your car. That you can with an EV and would get a game changing efficiency and cost reduction is an incredible bonus.
> Sure, but a full gas tank gets you further than a full battery.
That seems to be less of a factor today. Most batteries have hit the same or more range as comparable gas vehicles.
Some EV models already have ~600 mile range which is double their gas counterparts.
> We have friends with a long range Tesla that takes them days to charge on 120.
Sure, but that's to 100%. You can drive a car with less than 100% battery. A 120v charge can add as much as 40-60 miles range overnight. That's an average person's regular commute. The car might "never" be at 100% if the 120v charge is all it ever gets, but for some people they might never need a fast charge in an average week or even month.
Really? Which ones? I'm not aware of any vehicles where the ICE version has less range than the EV version.
And in general, people who are on the fence about an EV in the first place are not going to be buying the extra-expensive long-range models.
I know multiple people who have EVs and don't have a home charger, so do 90%+ of their charging at work. You're there 8+ hours a day anyway, and many workplaces provide free charging, so it ends up even cheaper than charging at home.
So I might not know those people, but know of at least 10 teslas that aren't charging at home every day, because usually those spots are taken by polestars.
You know that's a bad faith argument. Facts are, EVs have friction and that holds back a lot of adoption, and pretending it isn't there isn't going to make it go away.
The part that isn't like for like sure is that there is an increased friction that even a "fast charger" can take a magnitude more time than a gas pump. But fast chargers are much safer and can be parallel tasked (running other errands while a charge happens) whereas gas is an explosive and requires diligent observation while refueling (despite how many people seem oblivious to all the warnings not to leave a refueling car unobserved and a long history of explosion statistics).
In my experience, fast charging time and lack of home charging ability (and under-estimation of Level 1/2 charging utility) feel like red herrings rather than actual issues. These things get talked about a lot, but the real world experience of them isn't the friction people believe it is. The biggest issues seem to be far more sociopolitical than technical to me. People have invested too much of their identities in gas. Entire political parties seem devoted to propping up gas sales for as long as possible.
"It's an unreliable transport without having a gas pump at home." That just sounds silly. Funnily enough that was exactly one of the early complaints of gas cars when electric cars were preferred in the very early days of cars. It was a complaint when gas pumps were rare and hard to find, or didn't exist at all yet and you were pulling gas canisters from the back of a pharmacy.
It's a more reliable transport than a gas car because I can charge at home. (I can't do that at all with gas.) It's a more reliable transport than a gas car because in a pinch I can find an outlet on the outside of my hotel and trickle charge enough to get me to the next charger. (When was the last time a hotel had canisters of gas just in case?) It's a more reliable transport than a gas car because I can find RV plugs in national parks and state parks and campgrounds far away from chargers and gas stations. (You ever see what you might get charged for a tow from a remote national park, even if that tow is just dropping off a canister of gas?)
The impression of the charger situation being more inconvenient than gas stations is already flipping and has room to flip a lot more, possibly surprisingly quickly, as gas prices rise and low margin gas pumps go out of business.
Ridiculous, since there are gas stations all over and you can get 50 miles of range in 30 seconds, or 350 miles of range in 120 seconds. Even the fastest EVs (which are expensive and therefore not likely purchases for people who are on the fence about EVs in general) do not even come close.
The fastest are maybe 18 minutes from 10-80%, but most are 30-45 minutes (and that's only for 70% of the total range of the vehicle, whereas an ICE can be fully tanked up in 2 minutes.
That's the assumption, though. There aren't. There is an illusion of it, sure. I gave that anecdata from personal experience. It isn't "ridiculous", it's called having lived (and learned to drive) in rural Ohio.
While there may be electricity everywhere, there certainly are not high-speed chargers in places where gas is even close to scarce.
Can you install it in your garage? Sure, if you've got the panel for it. But that's beside the point when we're talking about refueling on trips. That is, and will be for the foreseeable future, faster in an ICE. That's why we have PHEVs. Maintenance may be higher than an EV, but they're much better on road trips.
I think that's overstating it a bit. A fast charging stop is 20 minutes (often less) whereas a typical gas stop is 15 minutes according to AAA. Where the gas option has a momentary advantage is that modern gas stations are often attached to convenience stores, and this is not often the case with fast chargers yet.
Is it? Can I get an electric car recharged at a gas station in the same time it takes me to fill up a gas tank?
If yes, cool. If not, then the idea is that I wouldn't want to sit in a parking lot; I'd want to charge at home instead. And if I can't reliably charge at home instead...
I'd be surprised if I even hit five minutes.
Do you have a source on that AAA thing?
It could also be from old data from back in the day when you had to go in and pay with cash or credit at the register. Now that most places have credit card terminals or Apple Pay at the pump, it takes about 45 seconds from when I pull up to when I'm putting gas in my vehicle.
In US urban areas the average car is only driven 6000 miles a year. That's 115 miles a week. Someone in an urban city would only need to charge every two weeks. Friend has a Chevy Bolt in SF he parks on the street. He says it's not a problem.
I also repeat myself but I've measured how long it take to gas up a car on road trips. It's usually around 10-15 minutes. Oh sure actually filling the car is quick. But you have to drive to the gas station, fill the car, drive away from the gas station.
Costs you also pay driving to the EV charging station. 10-15 mins really? Maybe if you are taking a poop or buying a sandwich. Usually on road trips gas stations are immediately off the freeway or at major crossroads of state or county roads. You aren't really detouring to get to them.
Harder downtown where there's only street parking, some feaction has been converted to street charging spots by the municipality, but nit that many and pricing sucjs since you have to pay parking fee in addition to charging fee which is considerably higher than proper home charging would be.
From my coworker who had a BEV downtown, it cost about as much to charge per mile as gas, do became a wash.
For me that can charge at home it's a no-brainer, I pay like 15% per mile with pre-Hormuz gas prices, less than 10% per mile now.
Otherwise, you're gonna need an electrician to put a 240v outlet or dedicated EV charger.
To be fair, this is most people. A level 1 charging setup is generally good for about 5 miles per hour, most cars parked at least 10 hours overnight, and the average commute just under 15 miles each way.
Level 2 is handy, for sure, but a whole lot of people could absolutely get by with a bog standard 120V socket.
Would love a Toyota EV but usually for significantly less I can get a Toyota hybrid with more space. Both my partner's and my vehicles are Toyota hybrid crossovers but we looked for an EV first and realized we simply couldn't justify the extreme price difference for how little our cars are driven. Really hoping when our time for a new vehicle comes we can trade in both for one reasonably priced EV crossover - so hopefully the rest of the planet can continue pushing the EV market forward while the US lags way behind.
1) Just charge from an existing 120V outlet. If you average under 50 miles of driving per day this might work just fine.
2) Reshuffle existing circuits to get even a 20A 240V circuit for charging. This provides more than double the charging you can get from a 15A 120V outlet and may be possible by combining some existing circuits with tandem breakers. A lot of electricians will just quote you on going straight to a 50A or 60A circuit, but most chargers are configurable to lower levels and it can save you a lot of money to stick to a smaller circuit.
3) Share a circuit with a dryer using a device that automatically switches power off to the car while the dryer is running, there are a few brands of these.
4) Get an EV charger that supports load management, using a current sensor on your main breaker. These can dynamically adjust how much current the car draws to avoid exceeding the max current of your panel.
5) Electric meter socket adapter, these connect between your utility's electric meter and its socket and provides an EV charging port that doesn't go through your household panel at all.
And the newest, best ones also provide a generator inlet so you can power the house off your EV. Assuming it has the ability, of course, not all do.
Technology Connections did a video essay on this and concluded that for most people, you get plenty of range for everyday use just by leaving it plugged into a normal socket overnight, and just occasionally using a supercharger when you're doing long trips. Of course if your commute is particularly long maybe this doesn't apply to you.
Range anxiety is definitely a real concern about switching to EV but apparently most people don't find it that bad once they actually get one. Besides, there won't be any gas soon anyway.
You might ask an electrician to take a look. With modern quads, it takes real commitment to jam a panel to the point where it has no more capacity.
You need to use #1 copper for a 100A subpanel, you can use 3/#2 aluminum cable for a 100A service entrance but there’s an exception that allows using wire rated at 83% of its ampacity for a service entrance conductor which does not apply for subpanels.
Refeed the two removed breakers out of the load center and add a 60A two pole breaker to feed the EV charger, if it’s a cord and plug charger that you plug into a NEMA 14-50R you’ll need a GFCI breaker, if it’s hardwired you don’t need a GFCI breaker.
The material can be purchased for less than $500 for this project, if you have to hire out the labor it’ll be considerably more expensive, I’d estimate one day for an electrician or around $1200-1800 depending on where you live.
We've had an EV for 1.5 years and love it. In fact any time I'm in a gas-powered car it feels downright primitive with all the noises and smells and sluggish performance. The range anxiety we experienced at first has completely given way to it being awesome that I never have to stop at gas stations and don't have to waste time/money on oil changes.
But if we couldn't charge at home it would likely be more expensive to fuel than a gas car instead of being much cheaper (but this depends on your local electricity and gas prices).
However, I do think there is still a big pool in the US who haven't even ridden in one to know what they are missing. Americans have never let poor gas mileage stop them from buying a car (or truck) that is bigger or faster or somehow "better" than the economical choice.
I'm thinking of getting a Ford EV as my next car, prefer the features and looks to the equivalent Stellantis models.
> EREV (pretty much PHEV)
There is not much relationship between an EREV and a PHEV. An EREV is way, way closer to a BEV than it is to a hybrid. And I'll eat my hat if Ford actually releases an F150 EREV. That announcement was to mollify angry customers who thought Ford should not have killed the most popular EV truck on the market.
Frankly I'll be surprised if anyone seriously goes for EREVs. They make very little sense, which is why (AFAIK) it's only seen production once or twice in small numbers.
I actually have a different expectation regarding the popularity of EREVs. I think that for a certain segment, they'll be quite popular because they give the best of both worlds if the maintenance doesn't end up being too much more. They can end up being preferable for people who want to take long road trips without having to worry about charging.
That's hyperbole. They announced at 40K for the base model. Briefly sold it for that to people with early reservations, then jacked up the base price to like 48K. And a year later they kept on raising it, peaking, as I recall, at just under 60K. It was never 2x or 3x unless you are counting the worst examples of the dealer mark-up gouging. But that's not a problem Ford could do much to solve. And by 2024 they were selling for quite reasonable prices -- I got my extended range Flash for 50K out the door, which was a good bit less than the hybrid I had been shopping for.
There are routinely mark-ups on popular vehicles, and I bet there will be a period of time when this is true for the Fathom as well. Early adopters are willing to pay extra, so the market is there to take advantage of that.
They'll pretend to sell EVs to keep their options open, but they won't actually sell any.
Tongue-in-cheek, or a persistent case of cope?
That would be explicitly illegal, it will definitely not void your warranty. It could hypothetically increase your liability if you are involved in an accident where you run over a pedestrian who argues that you were silent when you should have been making noise, but I am not sure this has ever been litigated.
One of the things that really frustrated me about my Tesla Model 3 was how low it was. I would "look up" at Ford Fusions and other sedans on the road.
In contrast, my Model Y isn't an SUV. It's the height (and ground clearance) of what we used to call sedans, and really feels like a sedan instead of an SUV.
Us rusted on Toyota customers are moving to Chinese EVs
My family's last 6 cars were Toyota hybrids. But as a corporation, Toyota is notoriously anti-electric.
Tomorrow I am test driving a Xpeng G6, a Zeek X and a BYD Atto 3.
No more anti-electric Toyotas for me.
( And of course no cars from fascist countries like the USA, that goes without saying )
Japanese auto makers are already good at hybrid power trains, small engines.
surely extended range vehicles - 1000km+/700mi+ shouldn't be limited to Chinese brands only.
Go to Toyota's website today and you'll see that a Rav4 Plug-in Hybrid is more expensive than the bZ which is the equivalent full EV.
Going to an EREV layout (a series plug-in hybrid where the gas engine cannot drive the wheels mechanically) doesn't really save any costs directly, but allows sharing the platform between EV and EREV models.
I can't see myself ever wanting a Lightning EREV, for example, because of this exact issue. If I needed to tow, that would be the sole situation where it might hold enough of an advantage to matter. Aside from that, it will have (most likely) about 75% of the battery the BEV Lightning has, and it will lose the frunk, which is one of my favorite features. Plus, unlike my Lightning with it's 200K mile first required maintenance work, the EREV will probably have to be serviced every 10-20K miles. Ugh.
I have a Sienna minivan that is hybrid and gets 36 MPG which is at least 10MPG more than everyone else using a beefed up version of the drivetrain the Prius created. (I can go 550-600 miles on a tank)
I also got RAV4 Prime which is a plugin electric that uses the same drivetrain tech and can go full electric, hybrid, or full power with both for over 300hp which is fun.
They achieve the best efficiency by using an Atkinson cycle engine which is more efficient but less powerful on the Sienna and Prius. What has confused me more is that things like the Grand Highlander still have a traditional cycle engine in their hybrid setup so you don't get the maximum advantage.
It would be very interesting to me to have a small sedan BEV with a rear charging port and an optional flat trailer with a large battery and room for luggage/furniture. The battery would be plugged into that car while driving. I'd want the trailer rentable from the dealer for occasional long trips. BEVs seem to have powerful motors, there must be something else with the economics why this isn't a thing.
RVs are where I would think this would make the most sense. People with a travel trailer already have a heavy trailer and they want a lot of battery to get it anyway. beef up the axle a little you can put a thousand pounds of battery on you get more range when you're towing and if there's any left over your RV can run on battery power. It's also very common for them to plug in once they get where they're going and so they can charge on 220 volt power that's already at the RV park and be charged and charge your car while you're at it overnight.
https://electrek.co/2026/03/26/lightship-electric-rv-trailer...
https://electrek.co/2025/06/30/pebble-begins-deliveries-elec...
https://electrek.co/2026/05/08/really-quick-charge-with-rang...
Toyota is currently seeing record sales of their hybrid models and has made multiple models hybrid-only as costs have fallen.
Plug-in hybrids with larger battery packs are a harder market fit. They cost more because of the larger battery (often more than full EV equivalents) and are not saving you any extra money unless you can plug it in daily. If you have that extra money to spend and a place to plug an, an EV will probably work fine for you and save you more money over time.
It's more-so the "I don't want that over-complicated crap" mentality, which is hilariously out of date. The first-gen Prius ended up being the single most reliable car ever made by almost any metric you can name.
Cost is a huge factor, and now that hybrids are a small cost increase, or even the default option on some models, sales have increased substantially. Basically half the cars that Toyota sells are hybrid or EV at this point.
...was also incredibly slow.
A pitiful 70 horsepower motor assisted by a 44 horsepower motor that combined to an anemic 104 horsepower [0] on a car that weighed ~2,800 lbs.
I had to borrow my in-laws' car once, which is a first gen Prius, and I found the extremely sluggish performance to be outright frustrating. I felt like I had to floor the accelerator to reach highway speeds in any reasonable amount of time.
[0] Not a typo. The numbers don't add to 114 because they can't both deliver peak power at the same time.
"You have to have a specific daily drive for them to make much sense" - You'd have to have an extremely specific commute for an ICE car to potentially beat a hybrid (flat highway driving with zero traffic). Even then it's doubtful as hybrid engines can be designed to optimize more for efficiency since the electric torque can augment to make performance acceptable. Try to find an ICE car that gets better EPA ratings than equivalent hybrids.
"You're carrying two engines and to fuel/power sources, so mileage is terrible on gas and battery." - The corolla hybrid LE weighs 100lbs less than the ICE LE, in part because hybrid transmissions are quite simple in comparison to a manual/automatic required in an ICE car. In either case, hybrids have a huge advantage in the types of driving where weight matters (stop-and-go/hills) because they can reclaim that energy rather than losing it as heat.
How is that different than plug-in hybrids that toyota already have?
In parallel hybrids, both the gas motor and the electric motor provide traction, sometimes simultaneously.
Parallel is more efficient if you're depending on gas often, as every conversion has losses. Toyota mostly sells hybrids you can't plug in, and the ones you can plug in are variants of the ones you can't, so they all share the same drivetrain.
Related, though not for plug-in hybrids: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KnUFH5GX_fI
THIS is why I hate legacy auto companies. They don't want to delight customers. They must be dragged and forced to offer the bare minimum.
I have a Hyundai EV and it's the best vehicle I've ever driven. Japan and Detroit (et al) can suck it.
Oh please no! I loved the old boring interiors with analog components
Nobody's making good lightweight superfast electric sportscars except for Kia (EV6 GT, 600hp). That car is amazing but the interior is super-cheap and Kia failed to "do the Acura thing" that made the NSX respectable (it isn't a "Honda NSX").
The Porsche Taycan is an absolute boat, an old man's car, the thing weighs a ton. Handling is terrible, center of mass is way above the axles. BMW electrics are the same. Mercedes doesn't even have an electric performance car. The German car companies are really just "mailing it in" when it comes to electic sportscars; they refuse to actually try to build a good one.
Tesla Model S isn't much better and is discontinued.
Other than the $250k+ upcoming roadster and the $60k EV6 GT (cheap cloth seats, no leather option, Kia badge) there's really nothing out there that handles well. Pretty huge gap in the market there.
Sadly, I might have to settle for the Porsche 718. Polestar 6 got me excited, but that project is basically dead, especially with Polestar being effectively banned starting with model year 2027. If the US government got its head out of its ass regarding Chinese cars, I'd REALLY like a BYD Denza Z Spider.
The sad thing is, the Venn Diagram of EV enthusiasts and sports car enthusiasts is almost two separate circles.
Of course a lot of race rules are very strict and an electric car wouldn't qualify and also most electric cars don't have enough power to show this off but the potential is right there.
Who cares if the roof is higher off the ground? The EV6's center of mass is much lower than the Porsche's.
The EV6 GT suspension is vastly superior, and it's active electronic; the Taycan just toggles between two settings ("normal" and "high-clearance" for going over speed bumps).
The EV6 GT's rear differential has electronic control; you can feel it when you take freeway turns at >80mph -- your brain tells you "the rear wheels should be fishtailing"... but they just don't. It's crazy. I think they actually factor in the steering wheel position, something you can't do with a simple mechanical differential. I've never felt anything like that in any other car.
But it still has the Kia badge. And the cheap interior. It's a shame; they could've used this car to launch an "Acura"-like brand with the EV6 GT as their NSX.
Still, Porsche should be embarrassed of the Taycan. That car is a joke.
Isn't that kinda what the Genesis GV60 is supposed to be? Granted it doesn't have the same HP as the EV6 GT, AFAIK....
My statements up till now were "yeah I'll get an EV when Toyota makes one" except here we are.
It is unbelievable how badly Toyota has fumbled the EV market.
Doa ? Yes
What a missed opportunity.
They are so unbelievably fucked. I wouldn't be surprised if they eventually pull out of the car manufacturing game and exclusively stick to motorcycles.
just replace all the gas burning, oil dripping parts
electric cars also produce way less brake dust particulates, so it's a win all around
just stop trying to make a car a smartphone
- A. make me an accessor to any datasets (and derivative reports that include my data if you want an extra poisonous pill) that include my data as a full dump and access log of my records and ‘admin’ activities.
- B. Tear out the telemetry hardware, or let me send it to my own endpoint. No satellite access needed. No thanks, driver cam. Who needs LoJack when we have Flock?
- C. Sell a car that’s built to be owned and operated by a human, not an auto brand. If they want to subscribe to some sort of remote assistance subscription, that would be an aftermarket 3rd party device. Open software and hardware within safety protocols increase the value proposition significantly. I would think this is the lowest TCO option, with standard, locally milled parts.
One can dream, right?
I want a dead simple car with the Waymo Driver installed and integrated.
My current car is a 2026 Model Y, but between public transit, Waymo being available in my town, and, soon, me taking possession of a top-of-the-line Brompton electric folding bike, I hardly drive the thing.
When I do drive it, however, I want it to drive itself, since I'm probably driving because I am either (a) going on a road trip that is made more fun by the car driving itself, or (b) am going somewhere that I have to drive to and am wishing the entire time that I wasn't.
You could be the first to make one. I've only heard of Edison because of their social media (so maybe a scam) - but they were showing off how they just bought a random truck and replaced the engine as a prototype
Depends. Compared to a competent driver in a manual transmission, I doubt it. Manual transmission cars can brake with the engine instead of brakes. You also may be on the order of 1-2000+lbs lighter.
Then there's tire dust particulate considerations with the heavier EV with all that torque.
EVs end up with unique brake problems because they get used so little.
> Then there's tire dust particulate considerations with the heavier EV with all that torque.
This part is slightly true. EVs are heavier and will wear out tires faster, and if you actually use the extra torque, that'll contribute.
https://www.slate.auto/en
/shrug.
They will absolutely make this EV extremely mediocre and then tell the world that nobody wants EVs. Sub 50kW charging, limited to only a few times a day, terrible range, terrible interiors that still don't support iOS/Android screens.
It's not even confirmed for the US.